[Yellow4g63]

nice collector

 

[Yellow4g63]

fair enough, i think i may have jumped on your back. The collector you use is what is known as a clover leaf, it is simply a stamped piece of steel and does not flow like a true merge collector.

Here are our collectors. I dont feel like having this turn into another internet pissing match, i just felt the need to stand up for our products.

Our collectors are true merge collectors with well defined points. here is a pic.

opps ment this one.

 

[morepower2]

fair enough, i think i may have jumped on your back. The collector you use is what is known as a clover leaf, it is simply a stamped piece of steel and does not flow like a true merge collector.

Here are our collectors. I dont feel like having this turn into another internet pissing match, i just felt the need to stand up for our products.

Our collectors are true merge collectors with well defined points. here is a pic.

Nice collector, I wanted to use a burns myself but its too long to fit wehere I want it to.

Mike

 

[FFgeoff]

we can make any collector, in any length, angle or orientation you want. And its not the thin stuff like burns.

 

[psshhgoesmysr20]

we can make any collector, in any length, angle or orientation you want. And its not the thin stuff like burns.

Do you have any photos of a header welded up, where you can look up inside the collector of the manifold (like the one I showed you earlier) If so I would love to see it.

 

[FFgeoff]

heres a pic. Believe me, it wasnt my idea to run a split housing on this manifold!! The customer insisted over and over again he wanted this, so i ablidged him... it made 680 at the wheels tho so what do i know.

 

[psshhgoesmysr20]

He probably got the Idea from Lisa Kubo. Do you make those collectors yourself or do you have a supplier? What do they go for a piece? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are using stainless weld Ls correct? If so that is a good Idea, since they are incredibly thick and have very good heat properties.

heres a pic. Believe me, it wasnt my idea to run a split housing on this manifold!! The customer insisted over and over again he wanted this, so i ablidged him... it made 680 at the wheels tho so what do i know.

 

[FFgeoff]

We make the collectors oursleves, in house. literally. Everything is done here, the only thing we farm out is the head flanges. The collectors cost 289 each, and are cut anyway you specify.

The material is all schedule 40 long radius 304 weldels.

Lisa Kubos manifold was not a 4 into 1 merge like ours. It was split with cyls 1 and 4 and cyls 2 and 3, going into the split housing.

 

[morepower2]

heres a pic. Believe me, it wasnt my idea to run a split housing on this manifold!! The customer insisted over and over again he wanted this, so i ablidged him... it made 680 at the wheels tho so what do i know.

A split collector with 1-4 and 2-3 paired up makes a huge difference in a turbo motor. It can allow the motor to spool faster than going down a size in turbine housing. Or you can go up a size and keep nearly the same spool up and have less backpressure.

Mike

 

[FFgeoff]

got proof?

i would like to see your proof on that statement. There is a reason no one really is using them anymore, and everyone runs a 4 into 1 collector these days. The last couple of years most people were trying all sorts of different collector styles but if you see the majority of race car manifolds theyre all open 4-1s. I do agree that for the most part the split housings will work better, but that is usually on engines with 6 or more cylinders...

its just the same old 4-2-1 vs 4-1 argument.

 

[psshhgoesmysr20]

Re: got proof?

Where are you located Geoff?

 

[FFgeoff]

We are located in Tempe, AZ. Thats where the shop is. I started things in NJ, as thats where i live in the summer time.

Now i go back to NJ in the summer to prototype new stuff and work on a few drag cars out there.

 

[morepower2]

Re: got proof?

i would like to see your proof on that statement. There is a reason no one really is using them anymore, and everyone runs a 4 into 1 collector these days. The last couple of years most people were trying all sorts of different collector styles but if you see the majority of race car manifolds theyre all open 4-1s. I do agree that for the most part the split housings will work better, but that is usually on engines with 6 or more cylinders...

its just the same old 4-2-1 vs 4-1 argument.

Garrett and other OEM turbo manufactures did some testing and found that. Its actualy a common engineering fact about that sort of style manifold, just that import drag racers have not caught on to it yet. It is pretty common on WRC cars.

Its the most effective on 4 cylinder motors, or V-8's with 180 degree cranks. It is very common in the diesel world as well. Its called a pulse converter manifold. When taken firther and combined with a divided housing turbine housing, a pulse converter can bump turbine effiecncy over 20%. This is marked because a 3% bump in efficiency can overcome a 20% gain in roatating assebly inertia. A divided housing also improves VE because it makes reversion and croiss cylinder contamination on overlap almost imposible. It can allow a biger cam to be used.

The charts and stuff that I have from a major OEM turbo supplier is propriatary and I promised my sourse that I would not let it out in public. If you want to read some engineering text stuff on pulse conversion, I recomend the book, Turbocharging the High Speed Internal Combustion Engine by Watson and Genoda. They have a whole chapter on the subject and modeling equations.

It's a very good book on the subject.

Mike

 

[FFgeoff]

Thanks for the tip. I have spent the better part of 3 hours looking for that book and cant find any trace of it anywhere. Got any clues?? thanks tho i love finding good books

As for the theory, i understand the idea of pulse converter manifolds, but maybe the manifolds we have dealt with were somehow not properly functioning or who knows but we have yet to really see any power gains using one on the ecko drag car. It made 943 whp with the open housing and a 4-1 merge collector, but with a similar equal length manifold and the split housing it made 917 and similar torque. This was on methanol, but it should seemingly work better witht he pulse converter... ive seen simliar results on a number of other cars, look at venom they are running a shorty style manifold 8.63 and 1040 hp, jotech same thing and 890 hp, no one is running a divided housing and most everyone has tried them out.

Any ideas?

Oh and as far as camshaft choice goes, heres a weird one. Jotech goes 172mph and 8.59 on stock GSR camshafts.
on the ecko car, they are running the BIGGEST cam they can (its not vtec) and the valves are dropping so far down in the hole that they are as big as possible so that when the motor is clayed its off the clay by about 10 thousandths. After you reply to this post ill be deleting this because its not really my place to let all this info out, but this is a slow board.

 

[psshhgoesmysr20]

Geoff, Just curious, what Size cup are you using on your torch as well as type of tungston you used when you made that manifold? Also what was your flow rate, and travel speed? Do you utilize a turn table? How far was your tungston sticking out beyond the cup?

 

[morepower2]

Thanks for the tip. I have spent the better part of 3 hours looking for that book and cant find any trace of it anywhere. Got any clues?? thanks tho i love finding good books

As for the theory, i understand the idea of pulse converter manifolds, but maybe the manifolds we have dealt with were somehow not properly functioning or who knows but we have yet to really see any power gains using one on the ecko drag car. It made 943 whp with the open housing and a 4-1 merge collector, but with a similar equal length manifold and the split housing it made 917 and similar torque. This was on methanol, but it should seemingly work better witht he pulse converter... ive seen simliar results on a number of other cars, look at venom they are running a shorty style manifold 8.63 and 1040 hp, jotech same thing and 890 hp, no one is running a divided housing and most everyone has tried them out.

Any ideas?

Oh and as far as camshaft choice goes, heres a weird one. Jotech goes 172mph and 8.59 on stock GSR camshafts.
on the ecko car, they are running the BIGGEST cam they can (its not vtec) and the valves are dropping so far down in the hole that they are as big as possible so that when the motor is clayed its off the clay by about 10 thousandths. After you reply to this post ill be deleting this because its not really my place to let all this info out, but this is a slow board.

I got the book from SAE publicatins a long time ago, it's proably out of print by now perhaps.

Maybe its other factors like the turbo choice?

Turbo selection has a lot to do with how well a cam works, in my opinion if the engine runs into crossover then you can run close to the same cam that works well naturaly asperated with just spreading the lobe centers a bit more. I usualy spread the centers more towards the exhaust side so the extra blowdown helps spool the turbo quicker.

I always check pre turbine backpressure when trying to figure this stuff out. Lots of backpressure, especialy if more than the boost pressure likes short duration less overlap.

Mike

 

[mevans]

who won?

 

[NotAnotherHonda]

holy old thread!!!!!!