Judder Code will it be 2nd Tranny? or maybe VVT Solenoid or maybe TCM p17f0

18911 Views 429 Replies 6 Participants Last post by 2016AltimaS, 4 mo ago

2016AltimaS

Discussion Starter · Jul 28, 2021

Ok, I do have a lot of miles but, aside from tranny again, today just spent $700 on replacing cat, has new o2 sensors up and down, new alternator, new battery, plugs, mounts have been changed before, new MAF, CAM and other sensors suspension still good, And BTW the first tranny went out at 75K and I got reimbursed for what I spent most likely because the dealer put in the first tranny for $3300 it was a reman. . it took 2 years and I was not sure that I would actually be compensated for what I spent but, I am glad Nissan stepped up.

IDK how many of you have seen this video but, it is a tear down analysis of a CVT and what he finds is a issue that is unavoidable and that causes the CVT to eventually fail. This guy seems to the think that it matters not how many times that you change the tranny fluid it will still fail because of the problem with the shaft.

I got 75k on the first tranny and now I have 231K miles on the reman. After the reman, I changed tranny fluid next at 110K and then again at 137K, and again at 168K again at 194K again at 229K, and the last one that I just did the fluid was surprisingly dark and slight burned smell. Fluid had been in tranny for only 34K miles. This makes me really question as to the quality of the tranny fluid itself the NS3 Nissan CVT fluid that cost an arm and a leg. Really why would this fluid not last more than 34K miles. I really feel that if I had replaced the fluid about 5k miles ago I may not be having the dreaded judder code. I still owe less than a grand on the car and since I just spent almost a grand on it just today, I think it still may be better if I just go ahead and bite the bullet on another tranny. I got a lot more miles out of this one than I did the first one.

I guess my question is now before I spend that much money, could it be the VVT solenoid and or the TCM causing the judder code and code these components been the real culprit the first time the tranny was changed out.? I really do not want to get another car payment at the moment and I know my car has a lot of miles, and if I replace tranny again I will most likely get another 150K miles out of it but, it does not take me that long to put that many miles on a car.

Has anyone had any luck with getting the judder code and then not replacing the CVT and were able to continue to drive the car? Thank you for advice

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VStar650CL

· #2 · Jul 28, 2021

P1F70 is pretty much a "death code" for a CVT, it generally means there's already been belt and pulley damage. The '16~17's had some frankly awful valve body problems that were unique to '16~'17 (thankfully) but didn't really get straightened away for a couple of years. Nissan also came out with belt-and-pulley kits for in-house rebuilds in late '16, but it was late '17 before the kits became widely available and dealerships widely had personnel with the training to do it. So depending when your reman was done, it may have still had the original valve body flaws and may or may not have been done in-house and not by Jatco.

I should also point out that the video trans came from a '10 Rogue with a 2-port beehive, and those were very well known for temperature-related failures that don't apply to your '16 Altie with a 4-port and heat exchanger. However, one thing definitely applies to both, which is the dark fluid you mentioned. While some "browning" of the fluid is normal over time, very dark fluid that stinks of varnish is a certain sign of overheating. The gen1 Rogues had no heat exchangers and Nissan eventually came out with a tube-type cooler kit to mitigate the problem, but the one in the video still had a 2-port and no kit. The kit was around $600 and there was no recall, so many cars never got one. I can just about guarantee the trans in the video died from heat and not a mechanical flaw.

There are two possible causes for it on a gen5 Altie, one is an inoperative heat exchanger and the other is overfilling of the fluid. The latter causes foam inside the belt cavity that causes "hot spots" in the fluid film and quickly degrades it. The former is rare unless the car had an episode of overheating, since the heat exchanger depends on the outlet tank of the radiator for cooling. If the engine overheats then so will the CVT, which is why I recommend adding a tube cooler to any CVT Nissan. It will save the trans even from the most horrendous overheat.

Back to your own vehicle, if your fluid got very dark very quickly, then it's certain that something heated it up. Before you decide whether to sell or reman, it would be a good idea to try to determine whether your cooling system has a problem or the tranny simply got overfilled. I know it's small consolation, but whatever happened to your trans probably wasn't the tranny's own fault.

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2016AltimaS

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jul 29, 2021

VStar650CL said:
P1F70 is pretty much a "death code" for a CVT, it generally means there's already been belt and pulley damage. The '16~17's had some frankly awful valve body problems that were unique to '16~'17 (thankfully) but didn't really get straightened away for a couple of years. Nissan also came out with belt-and-pulley kits for in-house rebuilds in late '16, but it was late '17 before the kits became widely available and dealerships widely had personnel with the training to do it. So depending when your reman was done, it may have still had the original valve body flaws and may or may not have been done in-house and not by Jatco.

I should also point out that the video trans came from a '10 Rogue with a 2-port beehive, and those were very well known for temperature-related failures that don't apply to your '16 Altie with a 4-port and heat exchanger. However, one thing definitely applies to both, which is the dark fluid you mentioned. While some "browning" of the fluid is normal over time, very dark fluid that stinks of varnish is a certain sign of overheating. The gen1 Rogues had no heat exchangers and Nissan eventually came out with a tube-type cooler kit to mitigate the problem, but the one in the video still had a 2-port and no kit. The kit was around $600 and there was no recall, so many cars never got one. I can just about guarantee the trans in the video died from heat and not a mechanical flaw.

There are two possible causes for it on a gen5 Altie, one is an inoperative heat exchanger and the other is overfilling of the fluid. The latter causes foam inside the belt cavity that causes "hot spots" in the fluid film and quickly degrades it. The former is rare unless the car had an episode of overheating, since the heat exchanger depends on the outlet tank of the radiator for cooling. If the engine overheats then so will the CVT, which is why I recommend adding a tube cooler to any CVT Nissan. It will save the trans even from the most horrendous overheat.

Back to your own vehicle, if your fluid got very dark very quickly, then it's certain that something heated it up. Before you decide whether to sell or reman, it would be a good idea to try to determine whether your cooling system has a problem or the tranny simply got overfilled. I know it's small consolation, but whatever happened to your trans probably wasn't the tranny's own fault.

Thank you so much for all of your advice. see more below the fluid lol

I will say that the very last time that I drained and refilled the fluid, that instead of the normal 3.5 quarts that I usually drain out and measure and refill it with that this time it was 4 quarts and possibly even a little more. I still have some of the fluid, I just smelled it again and it really only smells like tranny fluid. I mean it does not smell like flowers but it does not smelled burned and it only had 34K miles on it. But, I thought that a tranny fluid cooler came on the car, does it not. And you know my car is a 4 cyl also correct?

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2016AltimaS

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jul 29, 2021

VStar650CL said:
P1F70 is pretty much a "death code" for a CVT, it generally means there's already been belt and pulley damage. The '16~17's had some frankly awful valve body problems that were unique to '16~'17 (thankfully) but didn't really get straightened away for a couple of years. Nissan also came out with belt-and-pulley kits for in-house rebuilds in late '16, but it was late '17 before the kits became widely available and dealerships widely had personnel with the training to do it. So depending when your reman was done, it may have still had the original valve body flaws and may or may not have been done in-house and not by Jatco.

I should also point out that the video trans came from a '10 Rogue with a 2-port beehive, and those were very well known for temperature-related failures that don't apply to your '16 Altie with a 4-port and heat exchanger. However, one thing definitely applies to both, which is the dark fluid you mentioned. While some "browning" of the fluid is normal over time, very dark fluid that stinks of varnish is a certain sign of overheating. The gen1 Rogues had no heat exchangers and Nissan eventually came out with a tube-type cooler kit to mitigate the problem, but the one in the video still had a 2-port and no kit. The kit was around $600 and there was no recall, so many cars never got one. I can just about guarantee the trans in the video died from heat and not a mechanical flaw.

There are two possible causes for it on a gen5 Altie, one is an inoperative heat exchanger and the other is overfilling of the fluid. The latter causes foam inside the belt cavity that causes "hot spots" in the fluid film and quickly degrades it. The former is rare unless the car had an episode of overheating, since the heat exchanger depends on the outlet tank of the radiator for cooling. If the engine overheats then so will the CVT, which is why I recommend adding a tube cooler to any CVT Nissan. It will save the trans even from the most horrendous overheat.

Back to your own vehicle, if your fluid got very dark very quickly, then it's certain that something heated it up. Before you decide whether to sell or reman, it would be a good idea to try to determine whether your cooling system has a problem or the tranny simply got overfilled. I know it's small consolation, but whatever happened to your trans probably wasn't the tranny's own fault.

Also, I drive for a living. I may be asked to drive a 1000 miles for the day tomorrow even. I just got my car back from having the cat converter replaced and as of now no tranny codes I have been able to clear the code. Since I have cleared the code, I have noticed a little jerk every now and then but, the first time I got the code, the car would not go anymore. But, it still drives and I even did like 900 miles last week and this was after the code. I surely do not want to be stranded so far from home. Do you think that is what will happen anyway until I replace the tranny? My car has never overheated ever. I am really good about checking the coolant maintaining all of the fluids and I have never had a warning of overheating of anything on my car

VStar650CL

· #5 · Jul 29, 2021

Half a quart overfull is more than enough to kill any CVT in production today. "Burnt" CVT fluid doesn't generally smell like burnt ATF, it's more of a varnish/lacquer sort of odor. But the color alone is a telltale, it will never darken like that without heat. Your Altie does have a heat exchanger and they work well as long as the cooling system is healthy, but heat from foaming is something no cooler of any sort will help. It's "local" to the belt and pulleys very like rubbing your palms together in winter. The fluid is being destroyed at the points of contact, so it's already too late by the time it reaches the cooler.

2016AltimaS

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jul 29, 2021

VStar650CL said:
Half a quart overfull is more than enough to kill any CVT in production today. "Burnt" CVT fluid doesn't generally smell like burnt ATF, it's more of a varnish/lacquer sort of odor. But the color alone is a telltale, it will never darken like that without heat. Your Altie does have a heat exchanger and they work well as long as the cooling system is healthy, but heat from foaming is something no cooler of any sort will help. It's "local" to the belt and pulleys very like rubbing your palms together in winter. The fluid is being destroyed at the points of contact, so it's already too late by the time it reaches the cooler.

You think that fluid looks bad? it has to have some discoloration I would think. I have changed the fluid many times and I do not recall it being much different from what it was this time but, I did overfill it

VStar650CL

· #7 · Jul 29, 2021

2016AltimaS said:
You think that fluid looks bad? it has to have some discoloration I would think. I have changed the fluid many times and I do not recall it being much different from what it was this time but, I did overfill it

Might be the color on my comp screen or in your camera, but that looks mighty dark and very brown.

2016AltimaS

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jul 30, 2021

So, I drove my car a little tonight and I noticed that it did jerk a couple of times. I am supposed to drive about 600 miles out of state tomorrow.. What are the chances that my tranny will hold up? No codes right now but it is real hot down here

rogoman

· #9 · Jul 30, 2021

2016AltimaS said:
You think that fluid looks bad? it has to have some discoloration I would think. I have changed the fluid many times and I do not recall it being much different from what it was this time but, I did overfill it

How are you filling the CVT

2016AltimaS said:
I will say that the very last time that I drained and refilled the fluid, that instead of the normal 3.5 quarts that I usually drain out and measure and refill it with that this time it was 4 quarts and possibly even a little more. I still have some of the fluid, I just smelled it again and it really only smells like tranny fluid. I mean it does not smell like flowers but it does not smelled burned and it only had 34K miles on it. But, I thought that a tranny fluid cooler came on the car, does it not. And you know my car is a 4 cyl also correct?

It seems that you're not sure of the amount of fluid that's been installed with your drain/fill method. It's very possible that you've been operating the car with an overfull condition all this time which may account for the problems you're having.

Here's a preferred method for filling the CVT without the use of fancy diagnostic tools:
For a simple drain/fill on a 2013 - present, it takes about 3.5 quarts of the NS-3 fluid; There should be a fill tube with a locking cap that you can see from the top of the engine compartment. Pour in only 3 qts. Now make sure to Fully warm up the CVT by driving the car around slowly for about 30 minutes. Now let it idle. Make sure the car is level! Remove the overflow plug from the overflow port that's under the CVT converter case; it's at an angled position. If fluid comes out, let it continue to come out until it stops during the first "hiccup"; now at this point put the plug back on; the CVT is now full. If no fluid comes out, then slowly pour a little of the fluid in until fluid starts coming out of the overflow port. let it continue to come out until it stops during the first "hiccup"; now at this point put the plug back on; the CVT is now full. Now drive it some more for about 15 minutes or more, then recheck the fluid level while it's idling.

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2016AltimaS

Discussion Starter · #10 · Aug 1, 2021

rogoman said:
How are you filling the CVT
It seems that you're not sure of the amount of fluid that's been installed with your drain/fill method. It's very possible that you've been operating the car with an overfull condition all this time which may account for the problems you're having.

Here's a preferred method for filling the CVT without the use of fancy diagnostic tools:
For a simple drain/fill on a 2013 - present, it takes about 4.25 quarts of the NS-3 fluid; There should be a fill tube with a locking cap that you can see from the top of the engine compartment. Pour in only 4 qts. Now make sure to Fully warm up the CVT by driving the car around slowly for about 30 minutes. Now let it idle. Make sure the car is level! Remove the overflow plug from the overflow port that's under the CVT converter case; it's at an angled position. If fluid comes out, let it continue to come out until it stops during the first "hiccup"; now at this point put the plug back on; the CVT is now full. If no fluid comes out, then slowly pour a little of the fluid in until fluid starts coming out of the overflow port. let it continue to come out until it stops during the first "hiccup"; now at this point put the plug back on; the CVT is now full. Now drive it some more for about 15 minutes or more, then recheck the fluid level while it's idling.

Hi. Thank you . The first time I drained the tranny fluid after the tranny was replaced at 75K miles I ran it until 110K miles which essentially that was 35K miles on the first change, I drained the fluid out into a large pan and then I measured precisely what came out and put that amount back in which was 3.5 quarts. I have never had more that 3.5 Quarts come out until the last time i changed it. I understand that you have an exact amount but, this brings to mind why would they have under filled my transmission when they replaced it at the dealer? I do not know where the Overplug plug is because where is the converter case?

VStar650CL

· #11 · Aug 1, 2021

The only gen5 Alties that don't have an overflow/leveling plug are the '14's, we don't know why they omitted them on that MY.

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2016AltimaS

Discussion Starter · #12 · Aug 1, 2021

VStar650CL said:
View attachment 7661
The only gen5 Alties that don't have an overflow/leveling plug are the '14's, we don't know why they omitted them on that MY.

Wow, I do not understand how I could never have seen that plug there. SO, you think I have been running with too little fluid?

2016AltimaS

Discussion Starter · #13 · Aug 1, 2021

VStar650CL said:
View attachment 7661
The only gen5 Alties that don't have an overflow/leveling plug are the '14's, we don't know why they omitted them on that MY.

I am blown away because although the Judder code officially has not shown itself because my blue driver keeps saying that it is pending. It makes me wonder if maybe the reman that the dealer put in, maybe one that is just having an issue with the valve body. However, I am not capable of tearing it down myself. Since the code also is for the Transmission Control Module maybe that is the issue because since I have had the pending code, I have driven my car about 1500 miles. I keep being afraid to drive it far but I need to work, and I drive a pilot car for oversize loads. I definitely do not want to be stranded out of state somewhere. I just know that the first time it went out right after the code came, that the car actually would not work right anymore and I barely made it to the dealer because I am sure that the belt had snapped and the pieces were everywhere inside. Now, it still runs great except occasionally I feel a little bit of a jerk

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VStar650CL

· #14 · Aug 1, 2021

2016AltimaS said:
SO, you think I have been running with too little fluid?

No, I think too much, maybe for just that last change. Half a quart under won't generally hurt anything, it will cause the fluid to wear out quicker but not in the space of 30K. Half a quart over can destroy a CVT in under 10K miles. P1F70 usually means there's at least minimal damage to your belt, but I've seen some go a long way with proper drain-and-fills after throwing the code.

2016AltimaS

Discussion Starter · #15 · Aug 3, 2021

VStar650CL said:
No, I think too much, maybe for just that last change. Half a quart under won't generally hurt anything, it will cause the fluid to wear out quicker but not in the space of 30K. Half a quart over can destroy a CVT in under 10K miles. P1F70 usually means there's at least minimal damage to your belt, but I've seen some go a long way with proper drain-and-fills after throwing the code.

But, Rogoman above says 4.25 quarts. I only got out a little over 4 because I had added some when I thought I felt the tranny jerking but, now I think is possible except for the tranny code being stored but not activated that the jerk could have been misfiring

VStar650CL

· #16 · Aug 3, 2021

No sort of misfire will cause a P1F70. That code means the TCM has detected damaging belt slippage, it has no other meaning.

2016AltimaS

Discussion Starter · #17 · Aug 10, 2021

VStar650CL said:
No sort of misfire will cause a P1F70. That code means the TCM has detected damaging belt slippage, it has no other meaning.

Ok after having the pending code P1f70 still and almost now for a month, today I got the p17f2. But, last week even with the P1f70, I drove my car for 1800 miles. I was getting ready to do a run tomorrow from Fort Worth, Tx to Baton Rouge, Michigan but today I got the p17f2. Now, I say I got the codes, but I have never actually had these codes turn on the check engine light. Both of these codes are pending now, and I can clear them but they come back. Everyone is telling me not to spend 3300 to have Nissan put in a reman tranny but, the one that is dying now I got a lot of miles on it. If I had not just put a brand new alternator, battery, and cat converter, plugs, sensors, etc. it would be easier to let it go. How many miles do the engines last if taken care of? I think if I replace the tranny that I may get another 100k miles out of the car. I only have 2 more payments on it. Heck, I have had the first pending judder code now for over a month and I have put at least 5000 miles on it since then. I am not really having any symptoms I could probably make it to Michigan and back but, I went ahead and told the truck driver about the issue and told him that maybe it is best not to go there and then break down. Am I crazy for putting another tranny in?

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VStar650CL

· #18 · Aug 10, 2021

2016AltimaS said:
Now, I say I got the codes, but I have never actually had these codes turn on the check engine light. Both of these codes are pending now, and I can clear them but they come back.

Judder codes never turn on the MIL and are non-erasable by any normal means. Only a TCM replacement or reprogram will clear them. Even if you want to sell the car, it's a great used-car market right now and a new tranny is a big deal on anything Nissan. If the rest of the car is excellent then you'll more than retrieve the investment.

2016AltimaS

Discussion Starter · #19 · Aug 10, 2021

B

VStar650CL said:
Judder codes never turn on the MIL and are non-erasable by any normal means. Only a TCM replacement or reprogram will clear them. Even if you want to sell the car, it's a great used-car market right now and a new tranny is a big deal on anything Nissan. If the rest of the car is excellent then you'll more than retrieve the investment.

So you are saying that I should not have the tranny replaced? I know what is involved I have had it replaced before. Are you saying it is not worth it?

VStar650CL

· #20 · Aug 10, 2021

No, just the opposite. If the car is well-kept otherwise, replace it. A mistake killed this one, I'm sure that won't be repeated.

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