Does anyone know the advantages of the Hyperco B13 springs vs. GC Coil-Overs? Also, if anyone is interested in a set of the hyperco's, please email me directly... [email protected] A.S.A.P.
Just be aware that there are two versions of the Hyperco B13 springs.
One is a lowering spring with slightly higher spring rate, 180 IIRC. Rick Crist(sp) bought up all the remaining stock on these and is selling them.
The other is new and is a 300F/200R rate spring set. These where through a group deal and I don't know what availability on these is.
Both Hyperco spring versions are high quality.
The second one would be a good alternative to GCs if you don't need height adjustment or corner weighting. GCs would also allow you to change spring rates if needed just by getting new ERS springs for them.
What you want out of your suspension would determine which was better for you.
It's the Hyperco 300/200 1" drop. I currently have the sportlines and I like the way that they look and I'm just worried about wasting my money... but if it's worth it I'm gonna have to dig some money up. I also have the KYB GR-2's right now... let me ask this: how will it handle on the street? I'm needing to slow down some but I also need predictability for avoiding things and for the back roads.
You need to match the struts to the spring rates. I don't think the GR2s are up to the task at 300/200.
You like the drop of the sportlines, right?
And the Hypercos won't drop you enough for your tastes?
If you want to be really low, then you may want to look at shortened strut setups.
If you don't shorten the strut when you lower the car, travel disappears and you bottom out. Bottoming ruins the ride no matter what you run.
That's why the Hypercos are only a "1 drop. Travel had to be maintained.
Hmmm... may I remind everyone that I don't have a job So it's either Sportlines and GR-2's with no extra cost (the way it is now) or a modification that costs less than $400. But all I know is I've got a non-reundable deposit on those Hyperco's and I'm gonna need someone else to purchase them from www.highperformanceonline.com If they will kill or not work on my GR-2's it's a total waste of my money.
With these sportlines, how do you tell if you bottom out in the struts? I know the rear I only bottomed out twice.... and the rear left strut has been replaced since then cause of an accident. It happened when I had my 400lb stereo and 3 passengers in the back.
Would these sportlines be ok with the AGX struts? Would it be cheaper/better to get the front shortened struts (rear's.. I don't usually have passengers and I only have a 50lb stereo.)? I just want more predictable handling with adjustability if possible. Now if I can just leave my setup the way it is and if I can find someone to purchase those hyperco's, I could buy a HS header!
Yes, I like the looks of the sportlines. They do not look as low as those honda sportline kits or even the 95-99 sportlines and it looks just right on the sentra. Without the 15" wheels it can be too low at times on the 13" rims and on those tall nasty tires. The ride isn't like those honda's with 500lb spring rates w/ 3" drop on coilovers. It's only harsh when you go over railroad tracks or messed up roads.
The side effect of having the sportlines are the tire widths... with it being lower, as soon as you go over a bump the rear will bark with 205/50/15's even if you do not have passengers in the car. Now the people with the prokits (1.2"/1.2" drop same linear spring rate 148.5 in front and progressive 68.5/159.9 rear - sportlines progressive 191.4/142.8 rear) don't have problems with the 205/50/15's. I'm not sure if there's all that much difference between the 195s and the 205s. My rims are 6.5" wide so most of the 195's put more tread to the ground than some of the 205's cause they'd have to bend inwards to get onto the wheel which makes the tread skinnier.
The GR2s should be able to handle the sportlines I think. Anybody want to confirm this?
To check for bottoming, you can put a zip tie around the strut shaft. It should be tight enough to stay where it is on the shaft. Slide it down the shaft to the top of the strut body. Ride around. As you motor, the strut body will push the zip tie up the shaft as it goes over bumps. If you find the zip tie all the way up in the bump stop, you are bottoming. If the tie is still visible on the shaft you should be okay. There may be a few exceptions to this test, Anybody?
If you're not bottoming, you could just keep the sportlines. If you are, the stock springs would give you back predictability until you save up enough for a new combo.
The prokits have a higher peak rate in the rear than the sportlines according to your numbers. This difference may be enough to keep the tires from rubbing. Maybe you would be happier with prokits? That would be the cheapest upgrade option.
It would be a shame to miss out on the Hypercos. You might not be able to get some later.
Whatever you go with, bottoming is bad. Especially at speed.
1. Will adding the AGX's make the sportlines more predictable?
2. Will the AGX's make the ride very stiff if adjusted correctly to avoid bottoming?
3. Will the hyperco's definately kill the GR-2's?
4. Will shortened struts be better than AGX's in front with sportlines?
5. How can you tell the difference between the rear spring rates: Prokits progressive 68.5/159.9 and Sportlines progressive 191.4/142.8
1. Will adding the AGX's make the sportlines more predictable?
2. Will the AGX's make the ride very stiff if adjusted correctly to avoid bottoming?
3. Will the hyperco's definately kill the GR-2's?
4. Will shortened struts be better than AGX's in front with sportlines?
5. How can you tell the difference between the rear spring rates: Prokits progressive 68.5/159.9
and Sportlines progressive 191.4/142.8
1 No 2 They can't.
The AGXs only damp the oscilations of the springs.
They don't support the car. The springs are the only thing that can keep the car from bottoming.
I'm guessing the unpredictability is from coil bind or bottoming out. Increasing the suspension travel(spring w/less drop) or the spring rate(hyperco/GC) will help prevent bottoming/binding. Not bottoming/binding will give you predictability. The struts only keep you from pogoing.
3 Maybe not for a while but for sure in the long run. The 300/200 is more than they were designed to handle.
4 Shortened struts would probably be better but it's not cost effective. For the price, you might as well go GCs/AGXs all around. The only reason I mentioned a shortened setup is that it's the way to go low and still have travel. They are not cheap. Besides, it seems like the rear is where the problems are.
5 It is my under standing that the sportlines are a linear spring. I figured the 191.4/142.8 was the F/R rates. 142 is less than 159. If I'm wrong, sorry.
Do you know for sure if you're bottoming out?
What other research are you doing? Koni's website has some good tech articles.
Probably, but the GR-2's will probably be adequate. It all depends what your intended purpose of the vehicle is. If you'll be predominately street, they will probably be fine.
dho said:
2. Will the AGX's make the ride very stiff if adjusted correctly to avoid bottoming?
If you are using the strut to absorb bumps, the ride will be very stiff. Then once you are mid corner and all the weight has transfered, all the motion of the suspension has been taken up and the strut is no longer assisting the spring in absorbing bumps. The car will bottom.
Struts do not hold the car up, and are not a "fix" for bottoming. It comes down to spring rates and travel. That's it.
If you find the OEM spring rate and travel, you can calculate the load on the spring at full bump ((Rate)*(Travel)). Then use that figure and the lowered travel (taking into account shorter bump stops) to find the requried spring rate at that lowered height ((load)/(travel)).
Most aftermarket companies are running spring rates that work this way mathematically. What it does not take into account is the dramatically lowered roll centre due to the change in suspension geometry, which increases suspension load due to body roll.
My Sentra dropped 1.875 in front on a kit that was supposed to drop 1.25. Perhaps my Sentra was abnormally high to begin with, who knows, but it essentially does not bottom out at all. It will bottom when cornering and encountering a bump.
I have heard of people running GC coilovers on Tokico Blues and complaining that the struts were unable to dampen the 300/200 springs adequately. The downside of this is the car may become very unstable and bouncy. This may not be worth it. These springs will most likely kill your struts over time.
dho said:
4. Will shortened struts be better than AGX's in front with sportlines?
Yes, but it adds up. http://www.motivational.net/products/shortstruts.shtml sells them at $235 each. You can't build them for that. I talked with Koni, and you're looking at $140 to take it apart and revalve (might as well, since they're going to be in there anyway), $65 to shorten, and (if you want) $25 to convert to externally adjustable. This does not include the cost of the insert to begin with. Koni wanted me to be sure I really wanted them shortened, as they felt it was unneccessary.
You probably won't need shortened struts in the back. If that helps you at all.
dho said:
5. How can you tell the difference between the rear spring rates: Prokits progressive 68.5/159.9 and Sportlines progressive 191.4/142.8
Do you mean by physical appearance, or?? That 191.4-142.8 doesn't make sense to me. I remember reading it in some archives, but numerically it didn't follow the pattern of previous spring descriptions. Perhaps 91.4-142.8?
If you're just interested in really low springs, try looking at Progress Group - they drop 1.7" and run 165 front and 140 rear. I have heard many complaints about Sportlines, but I've never run them. Keep in mind many people don't know sh!t from applesauce.
Tokico springs drop 1.25 and are the highest useable rate for off-the-shelf: 156 front and 152 rear. They might work fine with your GR-2's. Incidentally, I am running Tokico springs.
I can totally sympathize with you regarding the Hyperco set. I thought they would have been great, but then realized that my Tokico blues would not be able to dampen them effectively. While I was still debating whether it was a good purchase or not (and adding it all up: $400CDN for springs, $700CDN for AGX's...) my computer monitor burst into flames ($270), and later was laid off (unrelated). So, hmmmm.
As it is, I am going to stick it out with my Tokico kit, and then later take the OEM springs into a spring shop and ask them to make me a set just like these, but with www/xxx spring rates and yyy/zzz free lengths. http://www.chamberlainspring.com/ in Canada apparantly can make me a set for $260 CDN, they just wouldn't have the progressive rate (and thus assembly preload) that they Hyperco's would have. I can live with that.
For about $450 you can get the Tokico handling kit that comes with springs and struts. Yes, people whine and snivel about Tokico blue struts - make your own decision.
It's not an easy road out there, and it's all full of compromises. Gather all the information you can, then make the best decision you can afford.
You could always flog the Hyperco's on eBay, or the Nissan forums that abound on the net. You could also run the springs with your GR-2's and let us know what happens. Then buy some AGX's to replace them. BTW - http://www.p-s-t.com/ has the cheapest prices fro AGX's.
5 It is my under standing that the sportlines are a linear spring. I figured the 191.4/142.8 was the F/R rates. 142 is less than 159. If I'm wrong, sorry.
Do you know for sure if you're bottoming out?
What other research are you doing? Koni's website has some good tech articles.
These are the spring rates and other info that the Eibach Tech support person told me:
Year Brand Model Part No. Front Springs Rear Springs Drop % more than factory
91-94 Eibach Pro-Kit 6316.140...Linear 148.5 lbs/in...Progressive 68.5/159.9 lbs/in....1.2"/1.2".....15-20%
91-94 Eibach Sportline 4.1663...Linear 148.5 lbs/in...Progressive 191.4/142.8 lbs/in....1.6"/1.5".....30-40%
95-99 Eibach Pro-Kit 6335.140...Linear 159.9 lbs/in...Progressive 137.1/257 lbs/in....1.4"/1.4".....15-20%
95-99 Eibach Sportline 4.3563...Linear 148.5 lbs/in...Progressive 117.1/228.4 lbs/in....1.9"/1.9".....30-40%
I am sure that I have only bottomed twice in the rear, that's with over a full load of people and stereo equipment(about 800lbs total, 400lb stereo & stuff, 400lb 3-people). I'm only a street driver, I can deal with the car the way it handles right now unless I take turns extremely fast... I noticed over soft (gradual) tall bumps in a turn, the front will get a little strange. The car feels like there's no more spring in the bump... like the car riding the hump... I don't know how else to explain it. It doesn't feel bouncy any more at that one moment.
I didn't really do more research other than finding info at sentra.net / nissanforums / sentra mailing list / se-r.net and some other websites. I just want a decent setup, ya know? I hate being told, "you should have done this" or "that's not gonna last long" or "you wasted your money" or "you spent how much money on that sentra and you don't have anything to show for it" or "you have to do this... to make... this work right and this.... to make it last longer".
Thank you both very much for all ya'lls help. I'm starting to understand more about this stuff. Maybe someday I could design cars for a living! Maybe even an AWD sentra that weighs 2000lbs with 280whp factory. Too bad we can't get the B13 Altessa AWD Sunny. Only 250 of them were sold.
If you guys find anyone that's looking for hyperco's please, please, please ask them to call Isidro @ high performance online. I don't want to make another mistake and another way to get more into debt.
Sentra.net dudes, why not add a section about the hyperco's and struts setups... and their specs like their rebound rate, the most allowable drop", the highest spring rate for a spring to work correctly with it, what coilovers will work with them, etc.
What about another section that talks about spring rates for the available springs. I've already posted about the eibach series... Are those Hyperco's really Linear front/linear rear like the sentra mailing list's posts or are they linear/progressive?
OEM ~ Spring Rates
GA16DE Sentra E ~ 112/101
GA16DE Sentra XE, GXE ~ 112/90
SR20DE Sentra SE-R ~ 123/112
(All this is posted on my web page)
191ibs-in is almost 60% stiffer than an OEM SE-R, and 80% stiffer than a GA16DE Sentra. A 30% gain would be 145lbs-in. I still think the "191.4" is a typo.
The Hyperco's are progressive, read through the posts again at the b14 forums.
Why not get the Hyperco's - you've bought them anyway. Run them on your GR-2's, but be prepared to buy some AGX's within a year? Then you would finally have a theoretically good setup, and then flog the Sportlines on eBay or something.
Did you cut the bumpstops on your current setup? Just a thought.
The other alternative is to just "get over it." Run what you have - you make the best decision at the time. No matter what you buy, there will always be something better. Accept the fact that a lowered car is going to bottom, and just try to drive around it. Maybe someday when you get into some cash, buy bigger/better/faster/more (not the album), but until then, don't worry about it. Don't let people phase you with the "you bought crap - ha-ha for you!" Very few people are truly informed/understanding of what they are doing/choosing.
I am sure that I have only bottomed twice in the rear, that's with over a full load of people and stereo equipment(about 800lbs total, 400lb stereo & stuff, 400lb 3-people). I'm only a street driver, I can deal with the car the way it handles right now unless I take turns extremely fast... I noticed over soft (gradual) tall bumps in a turn, the front will get a little strange. The car feels like there's no more spring in the bump... like the car riding the hump... I don't know how else to explain it. It doesn't feel bouncy any more at that one moment.
I assure you that your car bottoms every time you corner hard. If you took your car out on the track or autocrossed it, it would be much slower than a properly set up car. Currently your car is too low, way underdamped and has way too soft of a spring.
The best low buck combo for performance is the AGX GC Koni bumpstop combo with the car only lowered an inch or so from stock.
No I did not. I didn't know you could do that on the B13s. Can you give me more details please?
With the GR-2s they have a lifetime warranty. They accept the prokit lowering, do you think they'd accept the warranty from the Hyperco's or just tell them you had the prokits? How would they be able to tell if the car was lowered or had higher spring rates by looking inside the struts or would they even do that?
Take them out, cut them in half. Hacksaw or x-acto knife work fine. This will increase the travel by 0.875" This change alone significantly reduces the required spring rate to stay off the bumps. it will STILL bottom out on turns, as morepower2 states, but the car should be much more driveable.
OEM front spring rate = 112 lbs-in, with 2.00" travel.
Force at full bump = 112 * 2.00 = 224 lbs
Sportline lowering = 1.60"
Resultant travel = 0.400"
(0.875" cut off bump stops)
Resultant travel = 1.275"
Spring rate required = 224/1.275 = 176 lbs-in.
That's a 50lb reduction in required spring rate just by hacking the snubbers.
dho said:
With the GR-2s they have a lifetime warranty. They accept the prokit lowering, do you think they'd accept the warranty from the Hyperco's or just tell them you had the prokits? How would they be able to tell if the car was lowered or had higher spring rates by looking inside the struts or would they even do that?
They might look, you don't know. But what are you going to run while you send them back? Goon the GR-2s, buy AGX's, send the GR-2s for warranty, and flog the replacements to recoup some money.
When I was pulling wrenches for a living, you could totally tell what the driver did to cause an engine to wear out. I imagine it is no different with struts. If you happen to pooch all four struts, and I was the warranty guy, I would take them apart and look inside and try to screw you out of your warranty. You should see the Snap-On warranty guy go over your tools with a magnifying glass....
Originally posted by morepower2 If you took your car out on the track or autocrossed it, it would be much slower than a properly set up car.
I agree, but dho said the car is used on the street. If he were to do some serious autocross, the Sportline's gotta go. It's all about purpose.
DHO, Do me a favour, would you? Measure between the front hub centre of your sheel, to the top of the fender edge. I want to know how low your car is. Mine sits at 13" from hub to fender edge up front.
DHO, Do me a favour, would you? Measure between the front hub centre of your sheel, to the top of the fender edge. I want to know how low your car is. Mine sits at 13" from hub to fender edge up front.
Greg, from the center of the hub (in the middle of it, what's sheel?) to the fender edge is about 12.25" front / 11.5" rear. Is your car lowered? Where do these infamous bumpstops rest? Would removing weight from the front help the required spring rate? If I relocated the battery and unnecessary things? With 15" wheels, do they help/worsen/or do not effect the wheel travel?
With the suspension techniques anti-sway bars and front and rear strut tower braces, how much do they specifically effect the roll of the car? Do they allow more wheel travel in the turns?
My car will bark in the rear fender wells when I have 205/50/15's, would getting the hyperco's allow me to run these size tires? When running stickier & wider tires, won't the body roll more because of the gripping? How do you figure the exact tread width between the 195/50/15's vs 205/50/15's on a 6.5" wheel? Does wheel weight have anything to do with what we are talking about? My rims weigh 17.51 lbs each according to enkei.com and I'm not sure about the kumho 712s.
How are the hyperco's designed for their progressive spring rates? At what compression do they increase to 300/200? How low will these exactly lower the car?
Sheel? I really have no idea. I must have been drunk at the time.
Mine is 13" front, and 12" rear. I'd say you really need to trim those front bump stops. I have maybe just over 1" of travel up front as it is with the bump stops (snubbers) trimmed, and the car is 3/4" taller than yours!
dho said:
Is your car lowered? Where do these infamous bumpstops rest?
Yes. I lowered it with the Tokico handling kit (I mentioned this earlier).
The bump stops are those squishy foam rubber things you swapped from your old struts to your new struts. They go around the strut rod, and inside the spring near the upper spring perch.
dho said:
Would removing weight from the front help the required spring rate?
Yes, but not enough. If you have less weight on the front, there will be less weight transfer and less body roll. I doubt you would be able to remove enough weight to make it work out the way you want. Removing weight (or relocating weight) will also raise the car somewhat - but notice it really isn't significant. Look at cars with CF hoods and trunk mount batteries - they don't look any higher (with or withought coilovers).
dho said:
With 15" wheels, do they help/worsen/or do not effect the wheel travel?
Wheel size should not affect wheel travel. Wider offset will slightly raise the roll centre, which is a good thing for reducing body roll, but essentially unnoticeable.
The weight of the wheel will make a difference, as the unsprung weight must be controlled by the spring. The heavier the wheel, the harder it is for the spring to control it.
The tire construction might make a difference, as the stiffer the tire is, the less the tire contributes to overall "spring." The tire sidewall can be considered part of the suspension. 712's have relatively soft sidewalls.
I do not believe wheel and tire choice is going to save your ride. Just keep what you have. I run 175/70R13's in winter, 195/50R15's in summer, and 205/60R13's on mini stock wheels for track. I don't really notice the car handling any different due to the tire size (the race tires do make me bottom more, because of the grip).
dho said:
With the suspension techniques anti-sway bars and front and rear strut tower braces, how much do they specifically effect the roll of the car? Do they allow more wheel travel in the turns?
The ST anti-roll bars (sway bars) will add to the overall spring rate - this is a good thing for you. It will not cause your ride quality to deteriorate (allthough I found them to make the car a bit less precise on the road), and will greatly improve the cornering (especially on smooth corners). They will not increase wheel travel. (I just typed "sheel" there.... I don't know why I do this) You can also forget about drive-on car hoists and automated car washes with these bars.
I do not believe strut tower bars are the saving grace of a suspension. They do nothing to improve or degrade ride quality. They improve "feel" by reducing the amount of chassis flex, but that's it. This is an issue you might want to consider with running the 300/200 setup too - going bizarre stiff in spring rates can transfer some of that bump absorption to the chassis itself. Bummer that everything has a drawback.
I also refuse to pay $120+ for a bar of steel or aluminum. I made my own for about $10.
dho said:
My car will bark in the rear fender wells when I have 205/50/15's, would getting the hyperco's allow me to run these size tires?
I don't know. Probably, but you might be wise to roll the fender edges anyway. I had to do that to fit my 205/60R13 race tires on 13x7" rims (5" backspacing).
dho said:
When running stickier & wider tires, won't the body roll more because of the gripping?
Between every tire manufacturer, and even between tire models from the same manufacturer, the widths can vary. You may find a 205 that is the same, wider, or narrower width than another 205. Tire width is measured from sidewall to sidewall, not tread. "205" refers to the section width (sidewall to sidewall) in millimetres. A 205/50R15 tire is 205mm wide, 102.5mm tall sidewalls (50% of 205), and goes ona 15" rim.
dho said:
How are the hyperco's designed for their progressive spring rates? At what compression do they increase to 300/200? How low will these exactly lower the car?
I lied, it's not at the B14 forum. Have you read through the technical information at http://www.sr20deforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14576 ? All progressive rate springs are made by varying the coil windings along the length of the spring. Tighter coil windings produce a softer spring rate. The forum states that the "working rate" of the spring (the rate while the car is at rest) is 270/180. That is, the progressive nature of the spring has been compressed up to 270 lbs-in by the time the car is sitting at ride height. They will lower the car approximately 1"
Cut your bumpstops and see if you're happy with the results before you shell out more money. The rear bumpstop is an odd one. Cut the middle part out, and then reinstall with the top piece underneath the dust boot. It'll make more sense when you're in there.
Good luck
(Man - 12.25" - your car is LOW! WAY too low!)
Do check out these links, and feel free to email me off list if you like ([email protected])
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So it's either Sportlines and GR-2's with no extra cost (the way it is now) or a modification that costs less than $400. But all I know is I've got a non-reundable deposit on those Hyperco's and I'm gonna need someone else to purchase them from www.highperformanceonline.com If they will kill or not work on my GR-2's it's a total waste of my money.
