Hey whats up guys new to the forums but I have a question, I just got my hands on a second Mas and an SAFC and asked this same exact question on TT.net but to no avail it wasn't that helpful.
I need to know exactly how to hook up my Dual Mas setup to my SAFC in "lamins" terms. In no way am I a genius in the Z catogory but i have done all my work on my Z currently, but this is the stump I have run into.......
If anyone has a wiring diagram that I can copy or a step by step process for hooking this up so it is fool proof and dumby proof that would be great.
One last thing is that I am having a fully built race head being built right now and from Todd at Z1 Motorsports he stated that I can see upwards of 50-70 more CFM in the head. I just want to know the amount of HP rating I can get with this setup.
what is being done to the heads is.....
Fareaha oversized intake valves at a 2.0mm diameter
Titanium retainers
Titanium dual coil vavle springs
Upgraded lifters
5 angle port and polish mirror finish
this is terrible! No one knows anything? i need some insight here guys, I'm not trying to anal or nothing but everyone I've gone to just talking about this shit and its way over my head. In no way am I an electrical kind of guy!
Thank you sooooooo much this makes my life so much more easier. I could not find anything on that subject but where ppl were having Mas problems thats it.
Originally posted by SpeedyTTZ Hey whats up guys new to the forums but I have a question, I just got my hands on a second Mas and an SAFC and asked this same exact question on TT.net but to no avail it wasn't that helpful.
I need to know exactly how to hook up my Dual Mas setup to my SAFC in "lamins" terms. In no way am I a genius in the Z catogory but i have done all my work on my Z currently, but this is the stump I have run into.......
If anyone has a wiring diagram that I can copy or a step by step process for hooking this up so it is fool proof and dumby proof that would be great.
One last thing is that I am having a fully built race head being built right now and from Todd at Z1 Motorsports he stated that I can see upwards of 50-70 more CFM in the head. I just want to know the amount of HP rating I can get with this setup.
what is being done to the heads is.....
Fareaha oversized intake valves at a 2.0mm diameter
Titanium retainers
Titanium dual coil vavle springs
Upgraded lifters
5 angle port and polish mirror finish
Thanks, any info will be taken very seriously!
First off, what is a dual Mas? Do you mean dual MAF? If thats what you mean, a SAFC wont be able to compensate that much. On Nissans MAF voltage is what drives the map locations for each load point so the timing will be way off kilter, in addition if the voltage the ECU sees is tweaked way off normal by the SAFC, the ECU goes in limp home mode and the car bairly runs. A SAFC is more of a fine tuning device that you can use to lean out your mixture for more power if you are running race gas or to fine tune your a/f ratio for the boost level or VE of your engine.
If you want to run a dual intake, the easiest way is to run a JWT Twin POP with their ECU.
I also don't recomend titainum springs. Ti springs and retainers are a waste of money on a street engine. By modifed lifters do you mean a solid lifter? If you run these, you have to run a special profiled solid lifter cam, such as those offered by Tomei. This is only advantageous if you plan on reving past 8000 rpm.
If you plan on revving this high, then you must have the turbo and bottom end built enough to support this amount of revs, which in this case would be turbos bigger than JWT Sport 650s or Greddy/Mitsubishi TDO4's which are pretty damn big.
I guess the correct question I should be asking is how much power to the wheels do you want to make, how streetable do you want the car to be and how much money do you want to spend?
You may be putting money where it doesnt need to be spent.
Mike
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Originally posted by morepower2 First off, what is a dual Mas? Do you mean dual MAF? If thats what you mean, a SAFC wont be able to compensate that much.
AFC has two ways of dealing with dual MAF. It can either add the value of both, or it can average the value of both and relay it to the ECU. Seems like people who are doing dual MAFs tell the AFC to average the values. I'm told that the idle with big injectors+dual pop improves considerably and you can even get rid of the dual POP low driveability kit.
By the way Mike, do you know the max hp our Z32 MAF can handle?
ok all I know is that the kit I have came with upgraded lifters, how much of an upgrade they are I have no idea hince I am not messing with the heads, secondly I do have the Dual POP program and I do need the Daul MAS setup! I am not going to run that stupid low drive air hose over to the passenger side BOV. I have the HKS SSQBOVs and I am not going to mess with those in any way. I have read and researched this mod and it makes sense.... the JWT ecu only looks at the driver side intake not the passenger side. The reason for the air hose to be had is to shoot the air at idle to the other side to make for a less rich idle. Not only that, who in the hell wants that huge ass hose in the way anyways? not me. But besides that..... I have read and read and read on this mod and have seen some pretty good outcomes over its tuning affects. See with the one MAS being seen by the ECU there is no way for the ecu to see what the passenger side is seeing or reading, with the 2nd mas the SAFC can be set on this mode I forget what its called and the ecu will effectly learn the read out and thus being able to tune the car much better. From what I have read we are the only cars that can hook up this setup.........I am glad that you hooked me up Zhound my shop owes you one!
Originally posted by zhound AFC has two ways of dealing with dual MAF. It can either add the value of both, or it can average the value of both and relay it to the ECU. Seems like people who are doing dual MAFs tell the AFC to average the values. I'm told that the idle with big injectors+dual pop improves considerably and you can even get rid of the dual POP low driveability kit.
By the way Mike, do you know the max hp our Z32 MAF can handle?
Zo
I challange anyone to try to tune an AFC to run correctly under all situations better than a tuned stock ECU with a A MAF or a properly tuned stand alone. The AFC is a piece of crap when it comes to be the major tuning device for the car for the facts, not opinions that I always list.
I mean if you look at the output voltage, then look on the timing map to see where it will put you as opposed to where you are supposed to be, it is readly apparent.
The MAF can support upwards of 700 hp. I don't know how an AFC can improve idle under this sort of situation, my car with 740cc injectors idles like stock.
Mike
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Originally posted by SpeedyTTZ ok all I know is that the kit I have came with upgraded lifters, how much of an upgrade they are I have no idea hince I am not messing with the heads, secondly I do have the Dual POP program and I do need the Daul MAS setup! I am not going to run that stupid low drive air hose over to the passenger side BOV. I have the HKS SSQBOVs and I am not going to mess with those in any way. I have read and researched this mod and it makes sense.... the JWT ecu only looks at the driver side intake not the passenger side. The reason for the air hose to be had is to shoot the air at idle to the other side to make for a less rich idle. Not only that, who in the hell wants that huge ass hose in the way anyways? not me. But besides that..... I have read and read and read on this mod and have seen some pretty good outcomes over its tuning affects. See with the one MAS being seen by the ECU there is no way for the ecu to see what the passenger side is seeing or reading, with the 2nd mas the SAFC can be set on this mode I forget what its called and the ecu will effectly learn the read out and thus being able to tune the car much better. From what I have read we are the only cars that can hook up this setup.........I am glad that you hooked me up Zhound my shop owes you one!
thanks again!
Whats so stupid abut something that works perfectly? A dual pop reads half of the mass flow into the engine and the QA table of the ECU is chaged to reflect that part of the reading. The reading is non-linear but the QA table is corrected for that to provide the proper a/f ratio. A twin POP is a highly developed very sucessful system that is quite relaible and can produce a lot of power.
You better reaseach what the purpose of the lifter "kit" you are putting into your motor is and what it's supposed to do. Often aftermarket mods actualy perform worse than stock. I don't know what mods could posibly be done to the stock HLA's other than to replace them with solid shim under bucket lifters which has no advantage unless your are reving past 8k rpm which is in itself no advantage unless you are running huge turbos which also requires a heavily modifed engine.
Just changing to solid lifters without changing the cam to one with slower opening ramps will damage the valvetrain and have no performance advantage whatsoever other than nessesate difficult valve adjustmets using GT-R style shims.
Using only an AFC with an engine with the turbo and injector capacity to make use of an over 8000 rpm rev limit is going to result in trouble.
What are you trying to accomplish? What is your budject and what sort of power output do you want to end up with?
Mike
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Ok look I am only said that this was what I was told I'm not saying that I know all of this stuff I'm just repeating what has been handed down to me.....ok! Second of all whats up with your challenge? No one wants to challenge anyone so why are you making this to be something bigger than what it really is.....all I said was how do I tune the Dual Mas setup, I did not come on here to get hassled. And as far as the lifters they may be stock I don't know all I know is, is that they said that with the valve train kit which cost me upwards of $1700 that it came with upgraded lifters. Now it may be that its actually stainless steel lifters I have no idea so don't flame me! Secondly I don't have a budget ok, money is just paper and is ment to be spent. This is something I plan on having in upwards of near the 600hp mark someday.... once the heads are fully built my motor is getting pulled and sent to Z1 Motorsports in GA to have them completely bore out the motor and redo everything from the bottom up. It will be a fully worked race motor that will be some what street legal. I won't be pulling the motor again until the fall so thats when its going to get is internals done and have the block bored, sleeved, and o-ringed.
Also for the record you don't know what I have done to my car so how can you say that its impossible to run the car with a well tuned safc?
Originally posted by SpeedyTTZ Ok look I am only said that this was what I was told I'm not saying that I know all of this stuff I'm just repeating what has been handed down to me.....ok! Second of all whats up with your challenge? No one wants to challenge anyone so why are you making this to be something bigger than what it really is.....all I said was how do I tune the Dual Mas setup, I did not come on here to get hassled. And as far as the lifters they may be stock I don't know all I know is, is that they said that with the valve train kit which cost me upwards of $1700 that it came with upgraded lifters. Now it may be that its actually stainless steel lifters I have no idea so don't flame me! Secondly I don't have a budget ok, money is just paper and is ment to be spent. This is something I plan on having in upwards of near the 600hp mark someday.... once the heads are fully built my motor is getting pulled and sent to Z1 Motorsports in GA to have them completely bore out the motor and redo everything from the bottom up. It will be a fully worked race motor that will be some what street legal. I won't be pulling the motor again until the fall so thats when its going to get is internals done and have the block bored, sleeved, and o-ringed.
Also for the record you don't know what I have done to my car so how can you say that its impossible to run the car with a well tuned safc?
cya
Well, first you ask for help, then you get mad when you didnt get any replys to your post right away, then when I try to help you by asking questions and telling you that the way you want to control your engine tuning is a poor choice, you get mad.
If you are trying to build a 600 hp motor, then you are going to be asking for trouble by using a SAFC as your primary tuning device.
Also if your shop is telling you things like they are going to do a 5 angle mirror polish port, there is really no such thing as that, you must mean a 5 angle valve job with porting or something like that. Calling a MAF sensor a Mas. Ferrera valves are 1 mm, not 2mm bigger, no one makes dual titainum springs for the VG30, some sort of vauge lifter mod etc. I would wonder if your shop is trying to pull as fast one on you and charge you for all sorts of things that you don't need.
I am trying to help you so you won't get ripped off or have an engine that won't run right. Many shops are not competent to modify a Z or try to sell you all sorts of stuff you don't need, for instance, you don't need to sleeve or o-ring your motor for 600 hp. In fact sleeving will weaken the structure of your closed deck block, it is a trick that can make a open deck block like a Honda stronger, but not a closed deck block like a VG. Thats all expense that you don't need to do.
You don't need to use a $1700 valve train kit to make 600 hp, its just a waste of money. You don't even need oversize valves to do it. You don't need custom Ti spring or Ti retainers.
If you want to make 600 hp, ask and listen to some of the smarter Z guys here and tt.net like Zoe, Spongerider, Bernie, etc. They will tell you that you don't need money in the places you are spending it, it is better spent in the fuel managment, basic valvetrain and turbo departments first and you don't need a lot of expensive parts to do it.
If you don't want help, I won't reply to you anymore and sorry if I seemed like I was flaming you.
Mike
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Originally posted by morepower2
I don't know how an AFC can improve idle under this sort of situation, my car with 740cc injectors idles like stock.
Mike
Mike, you have a custom ECU for your car. I have the exact same program as you and the o2 targets are way off :-(. The A/F at idle changes constantly so it idles either too rich or too lean. We ended up disconnecting the o2 sensors and just tune the a/f for the idle using the AFC. Also the a/f under boost was in the 10:1 range.
Originally posted by zhound Mike, you have a custom ECU for your car. I have the exact same program as you and the o2 targets are way off :-(. The A/F at idle changes constantly so it idles either too rich or too lean. We ended up disconnecting the o2 sensors and just tune the a/f for the idle using the AFC. Also the a/f under boost was in the 10:1 range.
What sort of A/F sensor did you use for tuning? My motor on the pump gas program, which really isnt a custom program (it was developed on a nearly identical motor that Sunbelt built on their engine dyno, I just modified it some off boost to expand the closed loop area and have more spark advance off boost to make up for the 8:1 compression)
It sounds like your car might have some other problems, like a bad MAF (which I have been seeing a lot of lately) . The A/F is clamped at idle which leads me to belive this, it should be cycling lean on the A/F monitor. The WOT A/F ratio should be about 10.5-10.7:1 on the pump gas program.
Bring your car over, we can put it on Consult and do some trouble shooting. With the Twin POP the MAF voltage should be near zero but no more than a few hundered Mv. A dirty hot wire can cause symtoms like you are seeing. Water contamination is a likely culprit. I think its a higher milage car thing.
Mike
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dual Mass Setup for Dual POP
Quote:
Originally posted by morepower2
It sounds like your car might have some other problems, like a bad MAF (which I have been seeing a lot of lately) . The A/F is clamped at idle which leads me to belive this, it should be cycling lean on the A/F monitor. The WOT A/F ratio should be about 10.5-10.7:1 on the pump gas program.
Bring your car over, we can put it on Consult and do some trouble shooting. With the Twin POP the MAF voltage should be near zero but no more than a few hundered Mv. A dirty hot wire can cause symtoms like you are seeing. Water contamination is a likely culprit. I think its a higher milage car thing.
Mike
Greg has a wideband motec with which he tuned my car on the street. He uses the consult on my car all the time. Almost everything on my car is new put together by Greg. The MAF sensor is still original though. Wouldn't there be an ECU code if there was an electrical problem like that? Well maybe I'll replace the MAF with a new one anyway. I'll try to bring the car over when I'm in the OC area. I'll let you know.
I kind of expected the program to be not perfect since every car is different. But Greg spent a lot of time trying to get it to idle right, he talked to Jim Wolf about it too, they concluded that the o2 targets were different for my car hence the loping idle. Its way better now with the o2s disconnected, but its still far from perfect like yours.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dual Mass Setup for Dual POP
Quote:
Originally posted by zhound Greg has a wideband motec with which he tuned my car on the street. He uses the consult on my car all the time. Almost everything on my car is new put together by Greg. The MAF sensor is still original though. Wouldn't there be an ECU code if there was an electrical problem like that? Well maybe I'll replace the MAF with a new one anyway. I'll try to bring the car over when I'm in the OC area. I'll let you know.
I kind of expected the program to be not perfect since every car is different. But Greg spent a lot of time trying to get it to idle right, he talked to Jim Wolf about it too, they concluded that the o2 targets were different for my car hence the loping idle. Its way better now with the o2s disconnected, but its still far from perfect like yours.
It could be that the O2 location is way different or their is a leak somewhere as well, do you know what alpha at idle is? Slip flanges used for external wastegates are a big culprit for causing O2 sensors to run way rich.
Mike
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