This may be a stupid question but what's the difference between a lowering spring and a coilover?
By "lowering springs" we mean springs which physically fit onto stock, stock replacement, or aftermarket strut/shocks which lower the height of the chassis relative to the ground.
"Coilovers" usually refers to a kit that includes a set of springs, a set of spring perches, and dampers (or a set of sleeves that will allow you to use your aftermarket strut/shock of choice), which gives you height adjustability.
On a side note, a "coil-over damper setup" is technically defined as any setup where the damper is placed inside the spring. This means that your stock suspension system or anything resembles it is a "coil-over damper setup". Also note that I used the terms "strut/shock" and "damper" in the above paragraphs. Technically, "struts" and "shocks" are all dampers. I just used different terms to emphasize that there is a difference between an aftermarket strut/shock meant for stock or lowering springs (like the KYB AGX's) and a height-adjustable "coilover" damper (like the dampers used in the Tein SS kit).
Well i installed Megan racing springs with Tokico Hp's on new years eve and what a hell of alot of difference it made.
Feel :
The car is completely flat through turns, there is only a hint of understeer when rocketting into turns and this will be sorted out once i get a camber kit.
The ride is a LITTLE (i have to stress how minute this is) bouncy, but i figure i need to give the springs time to settle.
Look:
Gone is the disgusting gap in the wheel well, even with my 15's there is very little space in the front and there is absolutely no space in the back, and this is with 195/50/15's on. Arguably though the back is dropped too low cause there is really no gap at all left above the wheel while there is still a little in the front.
All in all everything came up to about $350 and its greeeeeeeat value for money.
__________________ Manual, 1800 on 16's but I'm still drivin it sideways!!!
The ride is a LITTLE (i have to stress how minute this is) bouncy, but i figure i need to give the springs time to settle.
A word of warning, this could get better or worse. The reason is because it isn't the springs that "settle". Unless they're very poorly made or you change the physical properties of them, springs do not lose spring rate over time (although they will lose free length). It's the dampers that break in. This means that two things could happen:
The first is that your setup is currently overdamped (damping rates too high for the springs), and that the dampers need to "soften up" a little to match the springs. This is the situation that people usually experience with fully adjustable coilover setups, and this is what you want to happen.
The second is that your setup is actually underdamped (damping rates too low for the springs). When your dampers break in, they will become even "softer" and the bouncing will get worse. This is what happens when people put drop springs on OE replacement dampers. You do not want this to happen.
I'm not going to make any predictions on your particular setup, but I'm going to put that warning out beforehand just so no one jumps to any conclusions.
Funnilly enough the car has settled alot, the ride is a lot less rough since you took it for that blast around campus last night, i can actually drive on my road and not wince anymore ...
I really do think the springs just needed some time to settle. For that matter everytime i get in the car and drive it feels better, then again, maybe i'm just getting used to the roughness. who knows??
__________________ Manual, 1800 on 16's but I'm still drivin it sideways!!!
I'd like to drive it again. I think even stiffer shocks would be better like kyb AGX, KYB SR or KYB a-just.
Just my opinion.
What I don't get is that the springs are almost the same rate as hyperco...hyperco(300f, 200r), megan racing(280f, 230r) which still feel soft to me. While Tein s.tech(170f, 280r) and tein h.tech(190f, 250r).
Why are Teins so soft. I spoke to a suspension expert and he said every manufacturer has different philosophies on suspension tuning. He said soft suspensions provide the best adhesion to the road no holds barred, however the body roll that results disturbs the dynamics of the car when negotiating a series of turns. This is why stiffer springs are better for autocros, to handle the transition from one turn into the next. He went further to say that, with soft springs, stiff shocks are needed to handle daily driving and a bit of sportiness.
Cuz as we saw last night, when we tested Mikey's suspension which was stock springs with stiff shocks. The car didn't budge. Any how, stiff springs/soft shocks (bouncy), soft springs/stiff shocks(a bit rough but better road holding), stiff springs/ stiff shocks (firm, rough, less adhesion but more control due to predictability).
I like the h.tech drop but the rates are soft, so I will have to combine it with something stiff to prevent bottoming out and other issues.
Tein BASICS sounding more attractive...but damn the price.
Get stiffer shocks cuz, unless the shocks are really settling. But give it 2 weeks and see, after all these american dudes don't know how bad our roads are. I know they have bad roads, but I wish we had roads full stop. Your road alone is a pogo stick with stock suspension.
I agree cuz, i really do need some stiffer shocks.. oh well there goes being cheap
I will replace the two back shocks with kyb agx's at months end.. i cant afford teh front ones right now but that will be the next change. BTW i took a deep left corner last night (top of knutsford blvd) doing what felt like 70-80 mph and the car had an insane amount of understeer... i ended up having to turn the steering wheel side to side while i punched the gas to get the back to rotate..... is that weird or what?
BTW i did not feel/hear the car bottom out...
could this be the reason why the teins are so soft (at least the fronts), could it be that tein is making every effort possible to make the car oversteer instead of understeer. Maybe you should get the teins, then we can make a comparison.
__________________ Manual, 1800 on 16's but I'm still drivin it sideways!!!
It's normally very difficult to feel/hear the car bottom out on the street if you've never been exposed to it in a controlled environment first. If think your dampers could be bottoming out, try taking out the rear seats and going for a test drive. This will allow more of the noises emitted by your suspension system to come into the cabin, so if any of your dampers are bottoming, you will hear it. I don't reccomend driving around like that all the time though. It gets annoying pretty quickly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skets
could this be the reason why the teins are so soft (at least the fronts), could it be that tein is making every effort possible to make the car oversteer instead of understeer. Maybe you should get the teins, then we can make a comparison.
Late last year, I pinned down a Tein engineer and grilled him for a few weeks via email (he must hate me now). He cited two main reasons for the softer front springs in the lowering springs for the B14 Sentra. The first was that they wanted to maintain front end compliance over irregular surfaces and bumps (grooved pavement, wavy pavement, etc) and to try to maintain ride comfort during sudden elevation changes (rough transitions, potholes, speed bumps).
The second reason he gave was much more interesting. Apparently, when they tested the stock springs on their reference cars, they found that with only a few milimeters of defletion after the rear springs were preloaded (preload = the total sprung weight of the rear end up the car), the stock rear springs (which are progressive) become significantly stiffer than the stock front springs (which are linear rate). When I asked why the coilover setups weren't put together with stiffer rear springs, he replied that increasing the spring rate further caused the rear end to break out too often during testing.
I'm not sure if that's the company's "official" position on that, but that's what I got out of them.
thanks for the suggestion, i'm taking a drive to the country this weekend so i will try taking out the seats then...
As for you explanation of the teins spring rates, that makes a whole lotta sense. I will definately push Shift_O_L to buy the teins then... then we can make a real comparison of the two setups.
BTW based on what i read in Kojima's articles on sentra.net; stiffening the rear of your car is the best way to counter understeer , however i have a friend with an AE110 supercharged levin and he is running stock springs (which are pretty soft) with KYB agx in the front set to stiff and kyb gr2's in the back. The thing is his car oversteers all the time, even the slightest corner and his car oversteers. Doesnt this go against the reasonings in Kojima's article?
I ask because right now i can only afford to buy a pair of adjustable shocks and based on Mikes article i should buy the pair for the back and set those to stiff to get rid of some understeer, but based on what i see in real life it would make sense to buy the front ones. Please explain what is happening with my friends car.
__________________ Manual, 1800 on 16's but I'm still drivin it sideways!!!
BTW based on what i read in Kojima's articles on sentra.net; stiffening the rear of your car is the best way to counter understeer , however i have a friend with an AE110 supercharged levin and he is running stock springs (which are pretty soft) with KYB agx in the front set to stiff and kyb gr2's in the back. The thing is his car oversteers all the time, even the slightest corner and his car oversteers. Doesnt this go against the reasonings in Kojima's article?
I'm not sure why this would go against the logic presented in Mr. Kojima's article. Which part are you referring to (I don't see anything about using stiffer damper rates in the rear to counter understeer)?
There are a lot of factors that could be involved in why the car oversteers. I'd go and recheck the tyre pressures, tyre tread, alignment, the condition of the dampers, and the other usual suspects before looking at the damper settings.
I'll tell you right now though, sticking two different sets of dampers on the front and rear of a street car is not a great idea, especially if they aren't independently adjustable in rebound and compression (AGX's and GR2's are not). Not only will you get unpredictable damping characteristics which you won't be able to compensate for, but you will get different wear characteristics (one end wearing out faster than the other), which will annoy and confuse you in the future.
Is this for the Tein s.techs, or h.tech....or does it apply to both?
I want the H.tech because of the mild drop. I refuse to believe that the b14 can take the 2.4 drop without bottoming out. What's your take? S.tech or h.tech for my money?
It's normally very difficult to feel/hear the car bottom out on the street if you've never been exposed to it in a controlled environment first. If think your dampers could be bottoming out, try taking out the rear seats and going for a test drive. This will allow more of the noises emitted by your suspension system to come into the cabin, so if any of your dampers are bottoming, you will hear it. I don't reccomend driving around like that all the time though. It gets annoying pretty quickly.
Late last year, I pinned down a Tein engineer and grilled him for a few weeks via email (he must hate me now). He cited two main reasons for the softer front springs in the lowering springs for the B14 Sentra. The first was that they wanted to maintain front end compliance over irregular surfaces and bumps (grooved pavement, wavy pavement, etc) and to try to maintain ride comfort during sudden elevation changes (rough transitions, potholes, speed bumps).
The second reason he gave was much more interesting. Apparently, when they tested the stock springs on their reference cars, they found that with only a few milimeters of defletion after the rear springs were preloaded (preload = the total sprung weight of the rear end up the car), the stock rear springs (which are progressive) become significantly stiffer than the stock front springs (which are linear rate). When I asked why the coilover setups weren't put together with stiffer rear springs, he replied that increasing the spring rate further caused the rear end to break out too often during testing.
I'm not sure if that's the company's "official" position on that, but that's what I got out of them.
When a car leans over in a turn and it will with soft lowering springs and no travel like sentra's have, the front bumpstops will bottom out giving an infinate front spring rate and total grinding understeer. A car set up by me will absolutly smoke a rice lowered car on the track or in an autocrss any day. All of the street lowering springs on the market except for hypercos will do this.
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