Shit man, Im not fired up at all. Hope I didnt come across that way. I have driven B14's with lowering springs(mine) and one with stock springs back to back. I felt as though I could go alot faster with the stock springed car. It felt alot better in the tight stuff just for the fact that it wasnt bottoming as much. Thats why even though its my opinion that lowering springs are cosmetic, there is some rough data to back up that statement.
I think there is a little confusiong as to what handles good and what changes handleling in a positive way. My idea is parts that make the car capable of going faster. Im thinking yours may be parts that make the car feel better at the same speed as you normally drive it. If thats the case then I can maybe see why lowering springs get some good comments.
My rims are 16" and too heavy for my liking(15.5lbs) I hope to score some ultra light 16" in the near future. Problably Volk TE37's
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Patrick Scott
Yeah, thats a roll cage in there.
I shall call him...Mini-Me
first I'm going to post my exact post so you can reference what I said...
"springs...
better than stock IMO.
improvement is improvement.
improves style and makes the car funner to drive and also
allows people that can't afford expensive setups to have an option besides stock."
Now, my reply to patscott
better than stock IMO meaning: i don't know more than you about suspension
you seem to be the suspension guru around here but in my opinion it is better
than stock LOOKS wise. I should have been more clear about that. Improvement comes
in many forms as you all know some are for show some are for go, both can be classified
as improvement (depending on how you look at it right? ricey= no improvement IMO)
improves style... c'mon 4 feet of wheel gap is not stylish.
funner to drive... well, I think so, I hate that wheel gap and I got 17's
(which I will comment on now) 205/40/17 (17x7.5) (Fittipaldi Avus_) and I got them cause I HATE
the 13's (15's whatever) that you guys think look good IT"S FUGLY and you get CLOWNED
all the time, yes they are pure performance but they are ugly (once again IMO)
. I didn't get 17's to make my car go faster i'll give you .5 seconds on the quarter mile
and keep my 17's and guarantee that my 200SX is probably one of the cleanest on the planet looks
wise and I will go by a digital camera if I must because I'm willing to bet some of the forum members would
agree with me. I have been on
this forum for a LONG TIME I don't come here talking ish and misspelling things and talking about
ricing out my ride, I'm a serious tuner who cannot afford to by a 240SX, every tool known to man,
a garage (house) (i live in an apartment) a DET and all other goodies YET.. key word YET... but in the
mean time I have a 200SX that I am completely in love with, it's not an se-r so its not going
to be my choice for a build up. I have plans to buy a S13 and go that route... while I am waiting
I want my 200SX to look as good as I can make it look. IMO TEIN springs are probably THE
springs to have. NO I didn't by aerorice springs with a 2 inch sad guarantee, I HOPE that the TEINS
will offer some sort of performance, hey TEIN said they would, I opt to give them a chance, and
i don't think they'd be worse than anything else. back to my last comment from my previous post
IT gives options is all, I would never autoX with springs, and If i go the spring route I plan
to get some high qual shocks too. TEIN says that the springs were designed to work with stock suspension
components so who knows maybe they will offer some level of performance above stockers.And yes your right
spending 2 grand on rims definately could have been spent on suspension but you know now why I
chose to go another route. when I do the 240, yeah. then I may opt for 15's and high-performance suspension
($1800, not EXACTLY two grand on the rims)
Pat, that's the whole reason why I bought the Tein HA. They are expensive but after experiencing 4 suspension set-ups(stock, Eibach/tociko, S/T GR2's, H&R/AGX) I said fuck it. With all the money I spent trying to have a better suspension, I could have bought the gymkhana suspension.
To all the guys who wants to lower their cars; dont just buy a suspension because it's cheap. Or anything for that matter. Use your money and common sense. Learn from our mistakes. We are not saying this to promote Tein. Shop around. There are other suspensions out there that are as good or better than Tein. JIC is one of them. Go with the one that has a lot of racing background or the one that has been tested by this community. Don't settle with anything less. Remember, it's your money.
Bob
theres more where that came from pat, I'm just waiting for you to respond....,
just a heated convo here, no flaming intended and honestly... if I had a suspension question
you'd be one of the first ppl I would ask
you have got my attention though to say the least.
I just ache to prove my point here. cause this seems to keep coming up on different posts
I am constantly having to justify 17 inch rims... well a new corvette has 17's on the front and
18's on the rear so are those "killing" performance? not a good comparo but still, I've more than
made up for the lack of performance in other areas and my handling is 200% better than with
stock rims and some nifty looking hub caps.
I agree with you on the suspension, get a good setup or go home.
springs, well they serve a different purpose, some nice TEINS and koni adjustables (or something to that effect) may be the
one exception and you may get SLIGHT improvement, but I cannot argue that point cause I don't know YET.
So your right, springs are really just for looks. But I bet some TEINS and good koni's will be better than stock
But bigger rims aren't gonna kill a high performance car, sorry man I'll fight you on that one.
sure they may hamper in one area but they can make up for it in other areas. and what makes you
think that my 17's are much heavier than those ishy ugly things with non-performance
tires anyways? (meaning the stock rims on a sentra not alloys the one's with hub caps)
we're only talkin about two inches here fella's I mean It's not like I got 22's
sorry so long on these posts, i may be long winded but a point has to be made and I'm not exactly
up against a dumb arse here (I'm up against an iron fisted super mod & 4 star general of B14 suspension army & 15 inch wheel nazi)
LOL
Guys, when Tein did a prototype lower springs on our cars, they did it on my freinds car. I'd say it's a very good set-up cosidering it was deisgned with on our stock struts. It did not rub or bottom out when I test drove it. Good firmer ride quality. I think tein took it into consideration the lack of travel our suspension has. Not like the other companies that sell and produce lowering springs. They probably just shorten the height of the springs and call it a day.
On 17 inch rims, for me, as long as you have the power who cares. If it's a civic that has 111 ft/lbs of torque, I'll think twice using 17's.
Blueboost is probably looking for suspension performance upgrade. Not for racing purposes. Tein/ agx combo might be a good set-up. With that combination a few more dollars will take you to tein RA category. Something to think about. It's all about how you gonna use your car.
Bob
Thats why i chose Tein, a respectable company highest spring rates for lowering springs and drop isnt that harsh in the rear, i mean i was gonna get some gr2s and springs like arospeed (cant say what they are). I think maybe anythingis better than what i was going to have.And blueboost at least you got some good grip with those wheels lol, i also have 17 " on an at and i dont think my car is all that slow at all, btw the M3 i drove has the worst body roll like our cars stock weird, anyways make sure you get some good tires though.
A good suspension for one might not be good for the others. Going to 17 inch rims and tires is a performance upgrade. But not all performance upgrade are good.
Bob
When I think of funner to drive looks are the furthest thing from my mind. I would rather(and will be soon) driving a ratty, black 240 with a Silvia conversion than my Sentra. Fun does not equal looks in my mind. This is obviously where we are different.
I will agree with you in the looks department. A Sentra with lowering springs looks way better than a stocker. There is something we agree on.
I dont care about the .5sec in the 1/4 mi. I dont drag race. If I did I would not have bought coilovers and I would not base all of my arguments on cornering prowess. The weight of a wheel has a bigger effect on the road courses. The bigger and/or heavier the wheel the greater the braking distance, the slower the acceleration, and the less the suspension can properly work.(In other words less grip. Really shows itself on rougher tracks.) The handeling problems reall get bad if you are running a suspension system not designed to handle the weight. Current lowering spring options are not up to the task. Enough track stuff lets talk street.
Many of the same things apply. Longer braking distance, slower accel., and a rougher ride(due to the same phsyics of the unsprung weight problem, the suspension cant properly work)
No need to buy a digi cam I'm sure your car does infact look good.(no sarcasm, im being honest)
If you want to talk about being on the forums for a long time..Im so old school that Im pre shcool. I was a member of the orginal Sentra.net Bb back in its infancy. 98ish IIRC, but thats OT for this discussion.
I cannot agree with your statment that you are a serious tuner. Why? The deffinition of a serious tuner is one who strives to get the most out of the potential within a car. I think we all agree that lowering springs are not the way to do that on a Sentra.
Did I say you spent 2k on rims? Didnt think I did. If I did I dont know why either. Anyway did you say you have $1800 in your rolling stock? If thats the case that much money is just about enough to get the best there is for the B14, full on racing stuff. Double external adj coilovers with any spring rate you want.
17" rims on a vette and 17" on a GA powered Sentra are two VERY different things. Reasons:1. The vette and its suspension were engineered from the factory to run those wheels. The suspenion will work properly. The Sentra and its suspension was not. 2. Power, the vette has the power to turn those wheels, again it goes back to engineering. 3. Braking, the vette's brake system was designed with those wheels in mind, again the Sentras was not. I think thats more than just one area that big wheels hurt.
Just wonder where/how have you made up in the performance? Its not so much the stock rims that hurt a Sentra its the stock tires. Put some good ones on there and you would be surprised. Also I do not belive that you have improved the handling of your Sentra by 200%, that is a big number and a bold statement. One that I dont think is possible with lowering springs no matter what other suspension mods you have made. Without a good damper/spring setup even the addition of STBs, swaybars, G load brace, poly bushings, race spec alignment, ect that number is not reachable. Without coilovers you cant even adj your cross-weights.
My 16"s weigh in at a 15.5bs per wheel(no tire). IIRC my 16" package weighs in a 16lbs over stock. Thats total, all 4 wheels mounted and balanced. My 16" were designed with low weight in mind. I know they would be lower weight than you 17"s. With my 16"s on its about the same as adding 160lbs to my car as opposed to the stockers. I wouldnt doubt that your 17" are at least 20lbs total over stock. Thats like 200lbs in your car.
Speaking on the Tein springs in particular. Tein says they are made to be used with stock dampers, correct? There is something really wrong with that statement. The Tein springs are quite a bit stiffer than Sportlines and the stock dampers can even keep up to those. The stock dampers dont have enough rebound damping to handle the increased rates of the Sportlines. What do you think will happen with springs that are even stiffer than Sportlines?
No flaming intended at all. I just really enjoy a good suspension theory discussion.(I also consider wheels/tires as part of the suspension due to their huge effect on it). I dont consider you as an idiot for having 17"s nor do I veiw you/your car inferior to me/my car. Im just talking tech. I have seen Sentras with 18"s and lowering springs and I think they look great(better than my car), its just not something I would do.
Your friendly suspension guru/nazi- Pat
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Patrick Scott
Yeah, thats a roll cage in there.
I shall call him...Mini-Me
Honestly, this bigger wheels discussion is making a big deal about getting bigger wheels than stock, i see that you are a perfectionist in the suspension area and i am also a perfectionist in general and some times thats not good. But a lot of ppl dont mind putting a little more weight to their cars, i dont get how you say bigger wheels make the handling worse, because i have 17s too (got it like that btw) and my handling is excellent but the only thing that probably hurt was the extra body roll maybe from the rims and when u get rims then you need to strut bars more than stock because of that, and thats true what you say, its because the car isnt made for bigger wheels.
And i still dont get it, my friend says his handling is soo much better than stock with the tein+kyb agx setup with 17s too. What do you think about this?
My b14 now runs on 15s with the agx/eibach combo. The rims are perhaps a little too heavy though. We do have some terrible roads here in some parts and basically even with stock setup the car handled terribly there so it is obviously now worse with the car lowered and on stiffer suspension.
Having said all that handling has definitely improved over my stock setup.
Now mind you, I'm not saying the car doesn't bottom out at all...in will in tight turns at speed but generally speaking my car doesn't roll as much, handles braking better, turns much better and generally speaking is more fun for ME to drive.
Sentras especially b13-b14s are not designed to be performance cars. They will never perform like an Impreza or Evo ...however, you can get definite improvements out of our cars with a little investment and careful selection of mods.
I'm not expecting my car to be the next WRX or WRC wheels out there nor am I expecting it to beat the next turbo Starlet or souped up Honda that pulls up beside me. I wanted to enjoy and improve my driving experience and I've got that with my current setup. If you guys are looking for real performance you seriously should consider saving your cash and getting a car built with that in mind. If you want a project sentra or car well be prepared to do the research and pay for the mods -- quality costs.
200% was not like a calculation but the rims and tires glue me to the road and I take turns like a ferrari. handling performance must have doubled there is such a difference. nothing else has been touched my suspension is still stock, I am only arguing a point with the springs seperate from the rims. I gotta get more into this at my house this is way too involved to be talking about now. check here later guys, don't forget this thread I think we have a good thing here and I look forward to replying to your great posts. check back soon
This is the best article and the best info I have found to date. It covers all sorts of setups. and has all the Tech info you could want. BTW Lowering springs can help Handling As long as you dont go over a 1 1/2 inch drop, The springs need to have a higher than stock pressur rate, Oh Yea.....Youve got to do the FULL suspension to gain the benefits.... READ above.
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****Nothing worth saying or showing****
I consider myself a serious tuner because i've changed my life to have the car I want to have.
right now I could be ridin in something much better than I am but I wait and save. like I said I am not "tuning" the 200SX only paying it off then saving for the car I want to tune (the ratty ol S13). Look pat this can go on and on forever the point is that we are not going to agree. you say I'm not a tuner thats fine, maybe I'm not. hell I don't even have tools yet. But instead of trading in my 200SX SE for something fast stock and making payments, I wait and bide my time. How have I made up for the heavy rims? well I have an intake and advanced timing and I had some other mods but after my engine got ruined I decided to stop the buildup and wait for a better platform. I want to go with a SR series and do not want to persue pwr from the GA engine anymore. I am only looking to make my ride the Nissan I think it should be for the time being not looking to make it anything amazing just really reallly nice and better than stock and personalize my car so when its rolling down the street the guy in the civic staring at my rear can say oh, thats danny's car. not oh look... a stock 200SX. oh well, I cant even find out the offset of my rims to purchase the springs anyways. maybe I'll keep it looking like an suv.
shmuck90- Your right to a point. In most cases the extra weight is offset by the gains, but only to a point. I fyour car had smaller rims it would handle better, stop quicker, and ride smoother than it does now. It may feel better than stock as it is, but a lighter set of wheels would feel even better. What do I think about your friend? He doesnt drive at such a level to notice these things I talk about. Also bigger wheels dont cause body roll. They are unsprung weight. Strut bars dont really do too much for roll either. They are to control flex.
Naemus- I dont understand. You say that your car is worse now, but handling has improved. What do you mean? You also say it bottoms out in tight turns, but it turns better, I dont get that either. Yes..quality costs.. a lot more than what you pay for lowering springs.
blueboost- Dude.. no flame intended here but your Sentra does not corner like a Ferarri. No freaking way man. What aspect in particular has doubled? Lateral grip?
nastynissan- Your right that is a very good article. I have pretty much said everything that article has about B14s in this thread.
__________________
Patrick Scott
Yeah, thats a roll cage in there.
I shall call him...Mini-Me
What aspect in particular has doubled? Lateral grip?
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