Is it a good idea to just spend about $100 and have Pep Boys do the Front Main Seal replacement? I figured it might be cheaper and save time, since I wouldn't have to spend money on a DECENT set of air tools and an air compressor. I know eventually I'm going to want the air tools, but just don't want to fork over the cash yet.
IMO
every repair you pay for helps the technician buy his tools, and puts you farther away from buying yours.
The part is 10 bux
Honestly, I had a major back surgery in feb, am still very sore
The idler for the power steering hung me up, but the job "should" take less than 1 hour, maybe 2 max.
I recommend, before you start, to get 2 bolts and large washers that thread into the crank pulley for use with the wheel puller. I couldn't get around it, found the bolts in my collection so I don't know the size. 3" long I do remember
oh BTW this was the fix for our car. We now have a clean engine bay- car has more power. I wonder if the leak affects oil pressure at highway speeds? That is where it would loose it.
When you pull the crank pulley, you will know
if there is oil behind it, the seal is toast
Is it a good idea to just spend about $100 and have Pep Boys do the Front Main Seal replacement? I figured it might be cheaper and save time, since I wouldn't have to spend money on a DECENT set of air tools and an air compressor. I know eventually I'm going to want the air tools, but just don't want to fork over the cash yet.
it took me about an hour to do all the job, it's not that hard and makes you feel more confident about you and your car i guess... with a $100 for that i'll get all the tools new, a couple of seals in case i break one and a set of beers for later (don't forget a good spray degreaser...)
I guess you guys are right, I did some more looking and found an air compressor and ratchet set cheap so I'll be picking them up shortly. Might as well, I know I'm going to use them more than once...
Last edited by TeKKiE : Sep 12th, 2006 at 05:39 PM.
I'm about to replace the seal... Which way exactly does the crank turn? Clockwise? or Counterclockwise? As far as the bolt, is it standard thread or reverse thread? I'm thinking of trying the "bumping starter" trick, but I really don't want to do it if I don't know exactly where to put the breaker bar. I'm doing this by myself so I'll have to give it light taps and verify it's backing it off.
The manual states that you can insert something like a screwdriver into the inspection hole, where the heck is that?
nvm...Finished with it. Actually seems to run a little bit better now, too. I didn't realize how much oil was leaking out of there! $13 seal from the dealership too..
Most of the driving that my wife does with her 98 Sentra (77 k. miles) is in the city and occasionally a 2 hour trip on a flat highway at 60 mph, so her automatic transmission rarely revs the motor over 4000 rpm by my estimation. But recently we needed to drive for 10 hours straight in very hilly terrain and she insisted on going up the hills at 70 mph, so that dropped the tranny into second gear with the resulting high revs.
Within a week after returning home, we can hear a high pitched sound coming from the motor which varies with the engine speed. I thought it might be an older PS belt, so when I changed it yesterday, I could see a lot of oil around the crank pulley and the groove in the AC belt closest to the motor has oil in it, but all the other grooves in the AC belt and the other belt are clean.
When I look up at the oil pan from underneath, I see the channel on the outer edge of the pan where are found all the bolts that hold the pan to the motor - the bottom of this channel (highest surface) is coated with oil over most of its length.
So my immediate assumption was that the pan is leaking through the silicon seal and oil is flowing downward but the air currents are spreading this layer of oil around the channel, while keeping other surfaces in the same area dry. In other words, the channel may be the surface least exposed to wind that flows around the engine and any oil flowing onto adjacent surfaces will be swept away rather than accumulate there.
So I called the dealer and they want $250 to reseal the pan.
Then I came across this thread and asked myself if a leaking front crank seal could explain this oil that is present on the underside of the pan protected up in the channel.
My theory is that oil leaks out slowly through the front seal and because the shaft is spinning, centrifugal force throws it out onto the back side of the pulley, which in turn drives the oil to the outer edge of the pulley where it gets thrown out in all directions. Where ever the oil lands, it then gets pushed in a particular direction by the wind and gravity.
So could the wind and gravity push the oil film downward and under the oil pan and up again where it finds refuge in the oil pan channel? If so, then it is more likely I have a front seal problem than a leaking pan gasket problem.
How to explain the high pitched sound? It could be a bearing in the alternator, the P.S. pump, the water pump, the AC compressor, or the V-belt idler wheel.
But could a bad crank seal make such a sound? That would require metal rubbing on metal.
Does the crank seal have any metal parts like a ring or a flat washer that could contact the spinning crank shaft and create this high pitch sound?
How to explain the high pitched sound? It could be a bearing in the alternator, the P.S. pump, the water pump, the AC compressor, or the V-belt idler wheel.
High pitched sound could likely be the PS pump, considering you stated it changes pitch with engine speed. At idle, turn your wheels hard left and hard right to determine if it is in fact the PS pump. If no change is heard, then it might be the other vbelt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal-1
But could a bad crank seal make such a sound? That would require metal rubbing on metal.
Not normally, unless the seal is completely shot (you'd have a lot more oil leaking, too)
Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal-1
Does the crank seal have any metal parts like a ring or a flat washer that could contact the spinning crank shaft and create this high pitch sound?
Nope. It does have what looks like a metal ring inside the seal, but it wouldn't touch anything in any way.
You could do some simple troubleshooting on your own to determine a likely place for the sound to be coming from. Just get a loooong screwdriver, preferably flat tip. Place it firmly on each of the components that are affected by your drive belts, and listen with your ear placed on the other end of the screwdriver (the handle). If the sound gets louder (vibrates thru the screwdriver more than other components), then you have a likely suspect. You will definitely notice the difference in sound and vibration from a defective component to a good component.
High pitched sound could likely be the PS pump, considering you stated it changes pitch with engine speed. At idle, turn your wheels hard left and hard right to determine if it is in fact the PS pump. If no change is heard, then it might be the other vbelt.
I did move the steering wheel from end to end to see if the noise would change and it doesn't. Originally I suspected it was the PS pump v-belt slipping. I think we can agree that the high pitched sound is probably coming from a bearing in some accessory that is marginal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeKKiE
If the sound gets louder (vibrates thru the screwdriver more than other components), then you have a likely suspect. You will definitely notice the difference in sound and vibration from a defective component to a good component.
This sounds like the mechanic's version of a doctor's stethoscope. Accessing the alternator and the PS pump are easy because they are on top. Below is the water pump and the AC compressor and the idler pump. They are harder to reach. Switching on the AC compressor and loading it up does not change the sound.
I am prepared to take off one v-belt at a time to see which group of accessories is making the noise.
Is there any problem operating a cold engine without the PS pump, alternator, AC compressor, or water pump turning over? All I envision is the red warning light on the dash board turning on. I hope that doesn't cause an OBD-II diagnostic code to be triggered in the engine computer. I don't have a scan tool to reset it.
If I still have the sound after removing both v-belts, then I will assume it is coming from an internal crank or cam bearing within the engine.
I understand the novel way to loosen the bolt holding the crank pulley is to turn on the starter motor with a long wrench attached to the bolt's head. My first reaction upon reading this method here was that a tooth on the flywheel or starter motor pinion gear might break off if the torque generated by the motor is high and the pulley bolt refuses to budge. In a way, this process is like turning the starter motor/flywheel into an impact wrench. I believe the FSM calls for an insertion of a screwdriver between the teeth of the flywheel to keep it from moving, so the manufacturer must believe that the teeth are very solid.
There are no problems IMO removing one vbelt at a time to determine if the noise goes away, if you don't plan on running like that for very long at all. My guess, would be that it could be the water pump, or the alternator, after what you had stated above.
If it trips an ECU code, the easy way to reset the ECU is just to remove the negative cable from your battery for 5 or so minutes. Of course you have to reset your stereo's presets, etc. but at least the codes are gone.
It's also very rare that you would have this variable pitched squeal coming from the motor itself. I for one have never heard any noise similar come from the motor itself. Since it doesn't vary with turning the column, then it likely isn't the PS pump. Since you stated it doesn't change while changing the load (like the AC compressor) it cannot be that. My last guess would be the water pump going out. The water pump as you know is only running in tandem with the PS pump on it's own belt, so that rules out the AC/Alternator group.
If it trips an ECU code, the easy way to reset the ECU is just to remove the negative cable from your battery for 5 or so minutes.
I once had a O2 sensor code triggered and I could not erase the code by disconnecting the battery terminal. I believe that OBD-I can be reset this way, but not OBD-II which has a non-volatile computer memory and requires a scan tool to reset it. There is an aftermarket of DIY scantools created to help frustrated car owners who were otherwise being charged 50$ to $100 by dealers to reset a code after owners forgot to screw on the gas cap tightly (generated a bad canister purge pressure reading).
I tried listening to the PS pump and alternator using your screwdriver turned stethoscope tool and each accessory generates a different low frequency sound due to the different diameters of the pulleys. The loudest sound between the two was coming from the PS pump. But I cannot say if the high frequency pitch we hear is a perfect harmonic of the PS pump's low frequency pitch, so I can't conclude easily which of the two accessories is generating the high pitched noise. Only removing one belt at a time will indicate this.
I note again that the area immediately above the crank pulley has a black oil film, proof that oil has found its way onto the back face of the crank pulley and been sprayed by centrifugal force in all directions. Did this oil escape via the front seal, the oil pan gasket, or the front cover gasket? I cannot say.
I will have a chance next weekend to probe a bit further and will post any news here.
Hope you get it figured out. As far as the oil leak, it is most common, the crankshaft oil seal (Front main seal). I noticed a huge difference immediately after replacing mine. I do have an oil leak still, though not from the FMS. I think it is the head gasket, as the oil pan gasket doesn't have a noticeable drip. It's not nearly as bad, either.
I did have to replace the alternator, though, due to the really bad buildup of oil being strewn about from the harmonic balancer.
Again, from the "stethoscope" method isn't a precise method, and takes a bit of getting used to. If you know your engine well, you could discern more effeciently. I would still venture to think that it would be coming from the water pump? My PS pump on my other car only SLIGHTLY alters it's wavelength when turning the wheel, and does change with the engine speed.
Worst case scenario would be to do as you had mentioned, and just remove one belt at a time. (You need to obviously remove the PS/W pump belt first), then you would remove the alternator belt. Since you've got both belts off, you might as well just remove the crankshaft pulley and replace that annoying oil seal It would also give you more time to look for other leaks while you're down there.
Since you've got both belts off, you might as well just remove the crankshaft pulley and replace that annoying oil seal. It would also give you more time to look for other leaks while you're down there.
In the past I have dove into cars and replaced a variety of items, including a camshaft timing chain. What I remember most about all these experiences is that I can never predict which bolt is going to be frozen or which bolt head is going to break off.
In some cases, I can cope with a broken bolt head by drilling out the core without damaging the threads. But sometimes it takes special tools like torches and machinist's taps to recover from a setback, tools that I don't own.
While I have the time to putter, my wife depends on having her car most weekdays and that means that we will probably need a professional to remove the crank pulley, as I expect it to be frozen after 8 years. I also don't have a 27 mm socket/breaker bar for the pulley bolt, nor a puller.
However, knowing ahead of time which belt driven accessory is making the high pitched noise might place me in a better position to decide if this professional mechanic should replace that item while he/she already has the crank pulley off for the front seal replacement.
If the high pitched noise is coming from the alternator or the idler tensionner, then I can replace these parts easily and economically myself. But if it is a water pump or PS pump, then its more complicated, and best done in my case, by a professional.
Great write up guys.Thanx for all the tips.
I did the seal behind the flywheel before fitting
my new engine and that was a piece of cake.
I used a screw driver to pull it out and before
I fitted the new one I put sum oil on the sides of the
seal to make it slip in.Took about 5min,but would take
a day if motor is mounted.
Take care
l8r
This thread started out addressing the subject of the front seal and I have confounded it by introducing two separate topics, 1) identifying the source of my oil leak, and 2) identifying the source of my high pitched noise coming from one of my belt driven accessories.
I am now going to create two new threads which deal with each of these issues.
Should my oil leak be due to my front seal, then I will update this thread in the future.
A garage nearby where I live suggested that vice-grips could be used to secure the position of the crank pulley while a breaker bar is applied to the bolt (for cases where the car has an automatic transmission). I can't imagine that working without marring the pulley surface.
The alternatives are removing the starter motor so that a screwdriver can be jammed into one of the teeth of the flywheel, or using the "tap the starter motor" approach. That puts stress on the teeth.
I am wondering if it is possible to create a DIY tool by using an old V-belt cut into a straight length and attaching one end of the belt to the end of a long rigid bar so that the belt can be wrapped several times around the pulley and when the lever is pulled over the curve of the pulley, it causes the belt to lock up in the pulley's grooves. Then the 27 mm socket wrench can be applied to the head of the bolt in the opposite direction.
Even though the bold has been torqued on at 145 foot-pounds, taking it off might require generating 2 to 4 hundred foot-pounds of instaneous torque from an impact. If the crank pulley has a diameter of about 6 inches, then that means our rubber belt will have to resist slipping/breaking/stretching with 4 to 8 hundred foot-pounds of torque from an impact.
If the belt can squeeze down on the pulley successfully, then this tool might work.
Any comments?
Last edited by montreal-1 : Sep 21st, 2006 at 11:36 PM.
(don't forget a good spray degreaser...)
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