Timing Marks 180 degrees out! - Nissan Forum
GA16DE 1.6L Engine Engine Discussion: 91-99 Sentra, 95-98 200SX, 91-93 NX1600

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#1 Old Aug 31st, 2012, 11:47 AM
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Timing Marks 180 degrees out!

So I put a new timing chain my 96 Nissan 200sx. I barely drove this car before this to move it from my friends house to mine so I'm not really sure how much power these motors are suppose to have. But I can barely push sixty going up a hill and this just doesn't seem right. My son's electric car could probably beat this car off the line... However, the car idles good at around 800 rpm. Put it in gear and it drop to about 625 and is kind of shaky. I've tried adjusting my timing over and over but can never seem to get the timing marks. So I went back and set the car to TDC and verified the distributor was roughly in the right area and then I looked at the pulley and noticed the marks weren't next to the mark on the block. It turns out they are 180 degress from the mark on the block. Any ideas on where to go from here?

I have another post that we were similar problems in until I found this out...
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#2 Old Aug 31st, 2012, 02:41 PM
jdg
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Dumb question...which cylinder are you putting the timing light on?
Passenger side or driver side end?

If you're shooting timing from the passenger side end and getting 180 out, then try shooting from the drivers side end. That cylinder is 180 out in the firing order and will effectively put your timing marks where they need to be to set it...IF in fact you're cams/distributor/etc have been installed 180 out.

If you're shooting timing from the drivers side end and getting 180 out, well, that's the way it's supposed to be 'cause you're shooting timing from #4 instead of #1.
Go to the other end and try again.

99% of the questions that are "STRANGE" have a dirt simple answer...usually answered by a dirt simple search.

NISSAN GOOGLE

Is it just me, or does the majority overlook the obvious?

Somebody ate a whole bag of dumbass for breakfast.

Why do people continue to run a vehicle when a warning light comes on or starts flashing? Isn't that a clue that something is wrong and you probably should NOT drive it?
Is this whole car driving thing really freekin' brain surgery?

Here's something new for the crowd/clowns...
"A little bit of Google goes a long way!"

Ever notice the one post wonders for info on turbo'ing a GA16 are never heard from again after they figure out the cost???

And if you can read this, you don't need glasses! :)

And yes, I am diggin' it...

Last edited by jdg; Aug 31st, 2012 at 02:52 PM.
#3 Old Aug 31st, 2012, 05:33 PM
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I'm shooting it from the number one wire which is on the passenger side. After much thought it really doesn't matter if the crank is out 180 degrees on these I4 car anyways. However, I took it to the shop this morning to have them hook it up to a computer and tell me what is wrong. They came back with the following Diag.- Timing chain needs adjustment or replacement. P0340, and p0304.
#4 Old Sep 1st, 2012, 12:01 AM
jdg
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If they told you that you needed a timing chain adjustment, they're full of it. Well...they might not be full of it, but nonetheless, more likely the base of you're distributor is full of an oily film caused by a rotten o-ring at the bottom inside of the distributor. Pull the cap/rotor, get a flashlight and look down deep in there. If you've got oil, you've got a lighter wallet 'cause you'll want to get a new one. It's possible to replace that o-ring/seal, but it's a pig to do.
You are right about the 180 out though...doesn't make much difference unless you're trying to use a timing light on it.
If the marks are still 180 out, use the timing light on #4 cylinder and they should show right up...that is as long as you are doing to the whole timing set procedure correctly.
Failing that, for grins, the distributor rotor spins clockwise when running, so, advance it a bit by eye. Loosen it up and turn it counter-clockwise about 10 degrees or so. Take it out for a run and see what happens.
If you turn it too far, it'll be a pig to start in that it'll fight itself when cranking due to the plugs firing too early. (If you go the wrong way, it'll crank over and over and will be a pig to start and feel like it's spinning over too easily)
Also, if you advance it too far, you'll hear it pinging once you get out on the road.

99% of the questions that are "STRANGE" have a dirt simple answer...usually answered by a dirt simple search.

NISSAN GOOGLE

Is it just me, or does the majority overlook the obvious?

Somebody ate a whole bag of dumbass for breakfast.

Why do people continue to run a vehicle when a warning light comes on or starts flashing? Isn't that a clue that something is wrong and you probably should NOT drive it?
Is this whole car driving thing really freekin' brain surgery?

Here's something new for the crowd/clowns...
"A little bit of Google goes a long way!"

Ever notice the one post wonders for info on turbo'ing a GA16 are never heard from again after they figure out the cost???

And if you can read this, you don't need glasses! :)

And yes, I am diggin' it...
#5 Old Sep 1st, 2012, 11:36 AM
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Quick question. After reading around on the forum I came across a post about making a mistake and not pulling the pin out of the upper chain tensioner. I didn't remember doing that so I took the valve cover off and behold a pin sticking out of the tensioner. I imagine this could be a major part of my problem. Thoughts?
#6 Old Sep 1st, 2012, 11:52 AM
jdg
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Oh ya, that'll do it... With that pin in, the tensioner ain't doing any tensioning.
Well, won't have anything to do with the 180 out, but the noise...Yep...
Oh, and since the tensioner ain't doing any tensioning, the timing will likely be jumping around quite a bit, but I wouldn't think it would be enough to cause those codes in the ECU.
Only way to find out is to try it and see what happens.

99% of the questions that are "STRANGE" have a dirt simple answer...usually answered by a dirt simple search.

NISSAN GOOGLE

Is it just me, or does the majority overlook the obvious?

Somebody ate a whole bag of dumbass for breakfast.

Why do people continue to run a vehicle when a warning light comes on or starts flashing? Isn't that a clue that something is wrong and you probably should NOT drive it?
Is this whole car driving thing really freekin' brain surgery?

Here's something new for the crowd/clowns...
"A little bit of Google goes a long way!"

Ever notice the one post wonders for info on turbo'ing a GA16 are never heard from again after they figure out the cost???

And if you can read this, you don't need glasses! :)

And yes, I am diggin' it...
#7 Old Sep 1st, 2012, 02:41 PM
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Ok well I found my loss of power. I started tracing the misfire on cylinder four and it turns out the fuel injector on my number 4 cylinder is bad. The chain is fine and the pin is now out... Camshafts are right where they need to be. However when I pulled the fuel rail out all the plastic tips that wrap around the end of the injectors are broken. Partially my fault since I wasn't so gentle pulling them out... Are these fairly important or can I live without them for now?

http://www.stac-consulting.com/serra...s15inj1(2).jpg

Link to photo of injectors. The little white tabs that wrap around the end are missing...
#8 Old Sep 1st, 2012, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve796 View Post
Quick question. After reading around on the forum I came across a post about making a mistake and not pulling the pin out of the upper chain tensioner. I didn't remember doing that so I took the valve cover off and behold a pin sticking out of the tensioner. I imagine this could be a major part of my problem. Thoughts?
Running the engine with no tension on the chain could have caused bent valves due to the chain jumping several teeth; if you haven't bent any valves, consider yourself very lucky. You need to re-check the upper chain timing.

KA-T for life, yo!
#9 Old Sep 1st, 2012, 03:58 PM
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Yeah I'm very lucky... It's a brand new chain so there wasn't quite as much slop as there could have been. Got a new injector put in now and everything seems to be just peachy now. Thanks to everyone for your input. Sorry for the run around. Now I just need to drive it and get all the monitors to kick in and then I can smog it. Got to love CA...
#10 Old Sep 1st, 2012, 04:14 PM
jdg
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Uh...no I don't have to love CA!
I just spent a week in San Diego for a training class for work. Coming from ND, that daily rush hour traffic is a whole load of B.S. I'm surprised there isn't a transmission/brake shop on every corner in every big city.

At any rate, so, did you get the 180 out thing sorted?

99% of the questions that are "STRANGE" have a dirt simple answer...usually answered by a dirt simple search.

NISSAN GOOGLE

Is it just me, or does the majority overlook the obvious?

Somebody ate a whole bag of dumbass for breakfast.

Why do people continue to run a vehicle when a warning light comes on or starts flashing? Isn't that a clue that something is wrong and you probably should NOT drive it?
Is this whole car driving thing really freekin' brain surgery?

Here's something new for the crowd/clowns...
"A little bit of Google goes a long way!"

Ever notice the one post wonders for info on turbo'ing a GA16 are never heard from again after they figure out the cost???

And if you can read this, you don't need glasses! :)

And yes, I am diggin' it...
#11 Old Sep 2nd, 2012, 04:44 PM
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Still not ideal on the timing. I got the timing marks to stay still so I imagine I was in timing mode. However they marks were showing up exactly at the top of the pulley so I turn the distributor all the way counterclockwise and was able to get the marks under the pointer to where it was about 20-25 degrees before TDC. But when I turn it that far it really slows down the car and it was about as fast as it was on 3 cylinders. So I put it back at my initial mark when I started the tear down and it runs great... Not sure what the deal is with the timing marks. Maybe idle is too high or too low???
#12 Old Sep 2nd, 2012, 05:41 PM
jdg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve796 View Post
Still not ideal on the timing. I got the timing marks to stay still so I imagine I was in timing mode. However they marks were showing up exactly at the top of the pulley so I turn the distributor all the way counterclockwise and was able to get the marks under the pointer to where it was about 20-25 degrees before TDC. But when I turn it that far it really slows down the car and it was about as fast as it was on 3 cylinders. So I put it back at my initial mark when I started the tear down and it runs great... Not sure what the deal is with the timing marks. Maybe idle is too high or too low???
Just because the timing marks are staying still doesn't mean the ECU is in timing mode. It just means the engine is running steady
I'm gonna guess that you aren't actually getting the ECU into the timing mode correctly.
Basically all this mode does is takes the ECU out of the loop for timing and idle speed, so the engine is running off of "base timing", in other words, what you set the distributor at, no advance, no ECU monkeying with the timing while you're trying to tweak it, etc. Same goes for the idle. When you're in timing mode, the ECU will command a specific setting for the IACV, and you tweak that value with the idle air bleed screw to get the right rpm.
One way to know if you're actually in the timing mode is after you set it up so you think you're in the timing mode, turn on everything electrical you can think of, A/C, headlights, blower motors, step on the brake, turn the steering wheel back and forth, etc. If you're actually in the 'timing set mode' and you do all of this at the same time, the engine will all but die on you because the ECU isn't trying to bump up the idle for you. If you're not in timing mode, the ECU will monkey with the IACV and try to maintain a nice smooth steady rpm.
Another thing that tips me off that you're not actually getting it into the timing mode, is that you're ending up setting it at around 20-25 degrees. That's the timing the ECU will try command while running at idle during normal operation, with the ECU doing the work. If you try to set 8-10 degrees with the ECU actually trying to do the work (e.g. not in timing mode), you'll actually end up about 10-15 degrees too far retarded and it'll run like crap.
Same goes for the idle. If the idle is too high, and you start messing with the timing, the ECU might already be commanding higher timing because it's got higher rev's to deal with, in which case you'll dial back the timing even farther and make it even worse.
What would really rock on these GA16DE engines/ECU's would be some sort of indicator that the ECU is in timing mode, such as flashing the CEL in a certain pattern. Even though I've done it a number of times, I still get tripped up once in awhile, and it aggravates me to no end.

On another note...you have read the setting the timing sticky, yes?

99% of the questions that are "STRANGE" have a dirt simple answer...usually answered by a dirt simple search.

NISSAN GOOGLE

Is it just me, or does the majority overlook the obvious?

Somebody ate a whole bag of dumbass for breakfast.

Why do people continue to run a vehicle when a warning light comes on or starts flashing? Isn't that a clue that something is wrong and you probably should NOT drive it?
Is this whole car driving thing really freekin' brain surgery?

Here's something new for the crowd/clowns...
"A little bit of Google goes a long way!"

Ever notice the one post wonders for info on turbo'ing a GA16 are never heard from again after they figure out the cost???

And if you can read this, you don't need glasses! :)

And yes, I am diggin' it...
#13 Old Sep 2nd, 2012, 10:46 PM
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Yes I have read it and I'm trying to follow it to the t but everything you have described is exactly what has happened and it is obvious now that I am not getting it into timing mode. I'll keep at it and hope that I'll eventually hit the sweet spot...
On another note, I was a student at UND in Grand Forks, ND. I prefer that area too. Although I live outside of all the city hustle bustle. I'm up closer to the mammoth area of Ca. I avoid the LA area if I can...
#14 Old Sep 2nd, 2012, 11:07 PM
jdg
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http://www.nissanforums.com/ga16de-1...st-timing.html
The first post of the above thread is NOT what you want to be following. It's for a B13 (earlier years) I think. There's a few steps missing in there somewhere needed for the '95-'99 GA16DE's.

Start engine, let it run until it's warmed up completely.
Run the engine at around 2,000 rpm for about 2 minutes
Let it drop back to idle for a couple seconds, rev the engine to about 3,000 rpm 2-3 times without a load
Let the engine idle for a minute.
Turn off the engine.
Disconnect TPS
Start the engine
Let it idle for a little bit (like 10-15 seconds or so)
Rev the engine to 2,000-3,000 rpm with no load then let it idle
Check/adjust the timing. Set it for about 10 BTDC (I think 10BTDC is the third mark from the last mark on the pulley, can't remember for sure).
Check the idle speed (MT 675 +/- 50, AT 725 +/- 50)

If you tweak either the idle or the timing, go back and recheck both the timing and idle.

Turn off engine and connect TPS
Start engine

Uh...Profit???

99% of the questions that are "STRANGE" have a dirt simple answer...usually answered by a dirt simple search.

NISSAN GOOGLE

Is it just me, or does the majority overlook the obvious?

Somebody ate a whole bag of dumbass for breakfast.

Why do people continue to run a vehicle when a warning light comes on or starts flashing? Isn't that a clue that something is wrong and you probably should NOT drive it?
Is this whole car driving thing really freekin' brain surgery?

Here's something new for the crowd/clowns...
"A little bit of Google goes a long way!"

Ever notice the one post wonders for info on turbo'ing a GA16 are never heard from again after they figure out the cost???

And if you can read this, you don't need glasses! :)

And yes, I am diggin' it...
#15 Old Sep 28th, 2012, 02:35 PM
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So I took it in to get it smogged since the car runs great and it failed. It failed the ignition timing inspection. They said they tried to adjust it and they couldn't get the marks to stay in one spot... He sugeested that is was a bad balancer... I'm not sure what to think at this point. Can the balancer be bad causing this issue or am I just falling back into the issue of not being able to get the car in timing mode?
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  Nissan Forum > Sentra, Pulsar, NX, B14 200SX > GA16DE 1.6L Engine

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