dlj189

I have a 2000 Frontier 2WD 3.3 L V6 with No power steering now, after a month of intermittent power steering loss recently reported by regular driver of vehicle. (not me) I'm at 100,00 miles now, and except for the A/C being replaced for 1200.00 this is the first major problem. Basically it's jsut a drive 30 miles a day each way to the office truck, never towed anything, rarely haul anything except plants, a few things for home repairs, and sometimes other peoples furniture.

Fluid is ok, belt old but not broken; I thought maybe the belt was slipping. PS got steadily worse over next week while I tried to figure it out.

So the shop quoted me about 400.00 for the p/s pump replacement (not sure if that included the pressure and return hose assembly or not). and 340.00 for a timing belt replacement (parts and labor) as well as the 3 v belts that are due for replacement at 100,000 miles or so. I really only planned on spending about 200.00 for a tuneup (timing belt, plugs, etc.) at 100,00 miles, this power steering thing is a complete surprise and out of my auto repair budget. What are the odds that the rack is damaged and will need replacement as well? Is there any way to tell if the rack is bad before changing the pump?

Alternateley I was considering doing some of this work myself or with my brother's help.

In the book and when looking in the engine compartment, It looks kind of like the PS pump replacement is pretty straighforward, except for my other brother says if i want to do this by myself, then I really need to take out the radiator to get in there and have some elbow room. I do not really want to do that, but I can see that it is very tight. and then if I yank on something too hard and wreck the radiator then that's more money. What do you think? Take it out or just be careful?

Spark plugs, wires, cap rotor, pcv valve, fuel filter, etc. are a not too scary to change. I have done it before albeit in a 4cyl Ford escort where the plugs were right on top. There is this one spark plug that is way in the back wedged down in a real tight spot. Unfortunate. They want 215.00 at the shop for this work.

Is the 100,000 mile mark the beginning of many expensive and/or time consuming repairs? If so, this truck needs to be traded or sold right away. The driver of this vehicle (my husband) is not a Mr. Fixit kind of person. He is smart enough to do it, he just would rather not.

Thanks,
Dee

 

azrocketman

I would not fool around with a steering problem. It would be my first priority to fix. Although I'm not a big believer in chemical fixes I might try some "power steering conditioners" from Pep Boys to see if maybe there's a stuck relief valve or the like that can be freed up. If not, I'd take it to a reputable shop, let them do the diagnostics to make sure its the pump, and pay the necessary price for them to fix it or do it yourself.

Has the timing belt ever been changed? Normally this would have been done at 60,000 miles so you may have some life on the existing belt. If this is the original belt you are living on borrowed time. While not a safety issue, a broken belt will immobilize you and could destroy the engine. Your $200.00 estimate on the timing belt and tuneup was way low based on this forum; folks usually include additional parts (e.g. water pump) since the labor is "free" during the timing belt replacement.

The tuneup is probably the lowest priority. If it's running well, gas milage has not deteriorated, and it passes any emissions tests then I would leave the tuneup for last. This is also the case where do it yourself might be most profitable.

Only you can answer whether to keep the truck or not. How are the brakes, tires, suspension (e.g. shocks), transmission, and the other major systems? If it needs brakes and tires it might cost you another $600.00 or more but then you have good parts for another 50,000 miles or more. Is the body straight and free of rust? Is the interior clean? If the truck looks like a clunker then it's probably not worth the effort.

Assume you will have to invest $100.00 a month in maintenance for this truck. You can sell the truck and by a used truck. If you are buying a low mileage, equivalent 2004 you might pay around $12,000 with yours in trade. That's $2000 a year (almost $200 a month) for six years not including interest, higher insurance and registration, or any maintenace. A new truck might be $18,000 with a trade. Unless your truck is a clunker or you cannot stand it anymore the cheapest solution is to fix and maintain what you have.

Good Luck,

Steve

MrFancypants

First off, it's great to see a woman working on cars (or a truck in this case)!

I am reluctant to think it is the rack that is the problem. More than likely the PS pump died and you need a new one. I highly doubt the shop's estimate includes replacing the lines as well. They are quite expensive and if they are not leaking they would reuse them. That said, you can replace a PS pump yourself and replace all the belts at the same time. Im not familiar with the amount of space on your model Frontier, but Im a firm believer that a little time spent in planning saves 3-5x as much in execution. So pull the radiator and make your life easier in the long run. It's not that hard to drain the coolant and refill it. In fact, at 100K mi, you should flush and replace your coolant if you havent already anyway.

Rest assured you can do everything in the 100K mi service yourself. One of the most profitable jobs for dealerships is scheduled maintenance.

I agree 100% with azrocketman -- even though repair bills hurt, it's going to be cheaper than buying a new vehicle. Theres really no reason to buy a new vehicle except to have a new vehicle


- Greg -

dlj189

ok so how long can i let this power steering thing go if i keep the truck on light duty, until I figure out what to do? should I cut the belt? It still turns like normal, it jsut does not do anything to help with steering ease.
Gosh my arms are getting strong.

thanks
dee

dlj189

I'm sorry I can't seem to stay logged in long enough to compose an appropriatly detailed reply today.

Ok, so I get that I'm on borrowed time for the timing belt so the truck is on light duty this week and next. My husband is griping about having to drive my 02 Sentra already. I told him to "stow it" last night or he might find himself with the truck on "no duty" soon. He backed off finally. So spoiled. He think is jsut want to drive the truck becuase its' so cool. Well yes it is, but I want to drive it so i can fix it, and also to be able to let my mechanic friends look in there if they want to, and help me. And if i'm buying parts next then I need to see in there and make sure the parts are correct as well.

Therefore, my plan is to see if my brother will let me come to his house next weekend to start tearing this down and supervise this operation, however, do I get correctly that the procedure for changing the ps pump requires that many things be taken off, some of those same things must be done to get to the timing belt so if I just change the pump and the v-belts then its double work with radiator removal and all so i might as well do it all at the same time.? Am I thinking right here?

If this is the case, it's making a good case for trying to make a deal with the shop to combine some labor charges on this work (timing belt, radiator flush, ps pump and v-belt replace) and letting the shop do it all at once. Do you think the shop is going to get p*ssed if I suggest combining some labor charges?

Thanks again.
Dee in Houston

 

azrocketman

Dee,

I'd invest $20.00 in a Haynes or Chiltons repair manual. While not the best manuals for repair they will give you a good idea of what is necessary for removal and replacement of various parts. There is some overlap in the different maintenance actions you are talking about; e.g. belts have to come off and you need to drain the coolant (I'd need to look at my manual). The timing belt is the biggest job and that requires a fair amount of disassembly. I'd look at other threads in this forum that have talked about timing belt replacement and what parts are typically changed at that time. A honest shop will not "double dip" on labor.

You migh also ask your brother what tools he has and ask in a different thread if any special tools are required for the work you plan (for example. do you need any special tools to remove the pulley from the steering pump or does the new pump come with one). I use work on my truck as an excuse to buy new tools but you might not want to invest in tools that you are only going to use once.

I'm assuming that you husband is taking you out for a nice dinner and a movie to express his thanks for the work you're doing on his truck. If not, I'd leave the steering wheel nice and greasy when you're done.

Steve

dlj189

I asked before about cutting the belt for the p/s pump. The idea was to avoid it freezing up and damaging something, and I'm sorry to be so dumb, I realized shortly after posting that, that this cannot be done, because that belt also powers the water pump. Another good reason to get on top of this belt change asap. The truck is on light duty now, only driving to my own job 10 miles total a day and no place else unless it is done on the primary route to and from my job.

I do have the Haynes manual. I normally buy a manual for my cars immediately upon purchase of the new vehicle and put it inside the car. It helps not get ripped of by the dealer when warranty work is done as well as alert me to maintenance issues. Problem with this truck is that its not my primary vehicle and my husband is not a fussbudget like me so he only looks at it when I force him to, and that time is now.

When I read and think about all three of these jobs together (timing belt, p/s pump. and spark plug replace/ tuneup) it seems they are interrelated as far as removal of components.

I was asking about the rack because although I don't know that much about how it works I think I understand that the fluid runs all through there, and was thinking if it's not moving any fluid then this area is not being lubricated anymore, and I was reading elsewhere where someone was saying to prepare yourself to have the shop call after starting the job, and say you need to replace the rack in some cases due to metal shavings caused by the ps pump failure contaminating the entire area.

The procedure for the timing belt replacement included taking of the radiator, remove plugs, take off the 3 belts, and a few hoses if they are in the way. The procedure for the p/s pump does not say to take off the radiator but I can see where its really tight in that area and the radiator out of the way would provide some elbow room. I guess this might be an opportune time to flush the radiator and associated system and replace the coolant as well. What do you think?

Now this shop I do business with has been operating in my small town for as long as I can remember. I have had other vehicles repaired when absolutely needed for what seemed a very reasonable price at the time, however none of them were Nissans. They were simple to work on v4 Fords and v4 Pontiacs with plenty of elbow room in the engine compartment. This shop has also had mercy on me in past years when I took something apart (the Ford Escort and my old Volvo sedan) and could not get it back together and finished the job for me at a reduced rate. That was some years ago. Perhaps they are not so hip to do this these days or they do not remember me doing this. They do not appear to be keeping customer records on the computer.
This shop does my brakes when needed, and I let them do oil changes sometimes, and they also did my A/C replacement on the Nissan and my Ford Escort years ago. I want them to stay in business, so I try to give them some work from time to time. When I determine that major work requires a shop, they are the ones allowed to do it. No one else.

I am on the fence about what work to do myself and what to give them at this point. While I could theoretically do all of it myself,(with my brothers help and tools) when Considering the interelationship of the parts removed to do the timing belt (which is a very important component to the operation of the vehicle and is overdue) I feel that perhaps this job should be theirs. But then due to the belts all being changed at the same time, all the related comopnents being loosened to get them off anyway, I am starting to think that letting them do all of it is prudent. In addition, if the sparks are removed to do the timing belt like the book says, then why not have them just put back with new sparks while they are in there? And if the radiator is off already, the coolant already drained, then why not have it flushed while it's out as well? It makes sense, but then the bill is getting larger now, not smaller like I had hoped.

The shop wants 213.00 for the ps pump-(rebuilt), and 98.00 for labor. (OReilly quotes a rebuilt life time warranty pump for 103.00 with core exchange, Nissan wants 275.00 for Nissan OEM pump). I read elsewhere that the pressure hose and the return hose replacement should be taken into consideration when replacing the power steering pump since the pressure of the new pump might overwhelm the fittings when installed. OReilly said I should also consider replacing the water pump while I've got it all taken apart because they thought the timing belt drove the water pump. Anybody know anything about that?

Thanks again for your input.

My husband apologized to me for his whining about the time frame needed to make a desision on this work, and for letting this go so long without any effort on his part to discover what was required. I explained again that I was a thrifty from birth, and I needed time to make a decision on expensive purchases and repairs, and was prepared to send it to the shop if necessary. I jsut needed time to get ok with writing a check for 1000.00 plus for one days work. I needed to do the research and know that using the shop was the right choice for some things and fixing it myself was the right choice for others. It's the way I operate mentally, and he signed up for it many years ago.

Costs-
The shop wants 340.00(belt cost is 45.68 belt, 218.00 labor-aftermarket belt not Nissan part, including the 3 v-belts at 18.92 each. I asked about the origin of the parts after calling around to price the job with parts only. (generic timing belt is 19.99 at Autozone, Nissan OEM is 45.00, Autozone belt are 9.99 each).

Tuneup which includes the platinum sparks, wires, rotor, cap, pcv valve, fuel filter, and air filter, parts 103.00 labor 98.00.

I gracefully as possible brought this rebuilt vs. nissan oem ps pump part cost issue to the attention of the shop, stating that if their part was 213 and rebuilt, and Nissan oem new was 275.00 then I'd rather have Nissan oem, but they did not volunteer part markup information, nor suggest I bring my own parts. I did not press them to discuss it. Not yet, anyway. I was testing them for flexibility.

The shop appears to be marking up the parts 100% and also charging 76.00hr for labor.
Is this normal?

Do you think the shop will be annoyed that I was cost comparing DYI vs. shop, or impressed that I (a woman) cared enough to learn about the what the job entailed so I could discuss it more intelligently? Perhaps stressing the possible need for add on work of the radiator flush, rack potential replacement, and water pump replacement might keep them from getting their defenses up, then I could gracefully as possible launch into the interelationship of the 3 jobs, and give them an opp to re-quote combining the jobs without actually having to say directly to them "you are double billing me for labor".

Thanks again for your input.

azrocketman

I checked one of the other threads in this forum. The recommended timing belt replacement includes the belt, the water pump, and the belt tensioner. You also need to inspect the crankshaft and camshaft seals for leaks.

I would let the shop provide the timing belt, water pump, and the belt tensioner for the timing belt change. The reason is that they would be responsible for the parts and labor if a problem occured. If your part failed, the cost of replacing the part and the labor would be on you. Also, the shop may be responsible for any incidental damage caused by a failure of their parts; they might deny responsibility if your part broke.

For the same reasons I would have the shop replace the steering pump. You might work with the shop on the new OEM part versus rebuilt. What warranty do they provide on the rebuilt part versus the warranty on the OEM part (this question also applies to the water pump)? Also, they may get a discount on the OEM part from Nissan so even if they buy the part the cost to you may not be much different then if you buy it yourself. Look at your hoses when the pump is replaced. If they have wear spots or cracking I'd replace them. Otherwise, I'd leave them alone.

I'd provide the incidental parts like the coolant, spark plugs, and V-belts. These parts usually do not fail and replacement is something you can do yourself if they do. Sounds like you can ask the mechanic to swap your new parts with the parts he removes.

I'd do the rest of the tuneup myself or split it with the shop. The air filter, rotor, and cap are easy so I'd definitely do that myself. Wires are not typically difficult but routing can be a pain (the 4 cylinder is easy, I do not know about the V-6). The PCV valve is a difficult job on the 4 cylinder, but if it's easy on the V-6 I'd do that myself. I'd let the shop do the fuel filter because it's under the truck and it drips gasoline everywhere when you disconnect the line.

The parts markup sounds high but I'd make sure that you are comparing comparable parts. The labor sound a little high; I'd expect about $60.00 per hour for a private shop. I would not "suggest" the possibility of other parts replacements (like steering racks). Don't sound willing to spend more money. You come across as an intelligent customer who understands the work to be done. This is good so the shop does not think they can sell you a new set of muffler bearings with the timing belt replacement. It's reasonable, I think, on a $1000 repair that you are looking for ways to save money and get the best repair for your dollars. A good shop will understand that and work with you.

Good luck!

Steve

dlj189

While shopping the parts it was Oreilly that suggested to me that a timing belt kit be bought instead of jsut the belt which included the tensioner, the belt, and idler for 90.00. this sounds reasonable. oreilly also suggested the water pump be replaced at this time. It makes sense because at 100,000 miles it jsut makes sense that some parts are going to wear out normally at this mileage or shortly thereafter.
Consider the teeth pulling effort it requires to get my husband out of his truck for a few days for repairs this might be worthwhile as well. At first i was looking for a cheaper way to fix this immediate problem of the ps pump, and get him back on the road to get him off my back in the short term, but now, after discussing with him the life of a vehicle and what is required to keep a 100,000 mile plus automobile in good shape, he is more on board with letting me do the homework needed to make a decision of how to keep it running long term, so I am considering the entire repair job (maintenance type as well as the immediate p/s pump issue). I also told my husband that he needs to get his nose in the book and get proactive about maintenance at this mileage of his vehicle if he wants it to be his primary vehicle for much longer. It's a peach, really, very nice still, looks like new when detailed out, runs great, and worth the maintenance effort I think.

About shopping the parts-
If not insisiting on Nissan Oem major parts, are there aftermarket brands of rebuilt ps pumps I should insist on? Should I insist on an OEM timing belt? I do not want to be opening this sytem up again until 200,000 if possible, anything else I need to know?

Perhaps I should ask the shop if I can bring them lunch next week and have a little conference about my vehicle. This is an established "community icon" repair shop. I have never heard one bad thing about them in all the years they have lived here. I've never had a bad experience with them. However, my heavy involvement with this major work, is that I am one of the very few people they service that drives an import. This is kind of a ford/chevy town. I wonder if they are afraid of this, and that's why they are not volunteering so much information about this repair as they had in the past with my Ford repairs. I do not question their integrity or overall automobile experience for a moment, only their level of experience with Nissan.

For example, their choice of non-oem and rebuilt parts as well as add ons to this job like the tensioner and idler, the water pump, etc. Maybe they are not bringing it up now because they have checked it all thoroughly and feel its not needed at this time, and they know what it entials to replace it later and its not a big deal if we leave it for now, or maybe they think I cannot or will not pay for OEM parts or closely related additional work where needed to head off a repair that is going to come soon anyway. Not sure.

I know I could take it to the dealer for this, but frankly the dealer in my immediate area is a flake. I ahd been taking my 02 sentra in for warranty work and been in several shouting matches with them already about not paying attention to details when performing repairs so i'm not really very confident in their ability to do long term repairs.

Thanks for listening.
Dee

azrocketman

Dee,

The recommended timing belt interval is 60,000 miles. You'll need to open it up at 160,000.

I do not know how to compare OEM versus rebuilt parts. You'll need to ask the rebuiler what he does when he rebuild a part. For example, does he just replace the rubber parts, does he just replace the parts that are worn, or does he replace all of the major wear parts? What's the warranty? It's not always a good sign that he has a long warranty because he may be betting that you will sell the truck before you have to "collect" from him (and the rebuilder will not pay your replacement labor). I know, with some GM Delco items I've seen in the past that the aftermarket parts were of higher quality and more robust than the factory parts. I cannot judge the repair shop's choice of new aftermarket versus OEM versus rebuild at a distance. They may have suppliers of rebuilt parts that they have used for years and trust. They may have suppliers that sell them parts that they resell with a 80% markup. All you can do is inspect the parts they use, ask what is rebuilt (if that's the case), and apply your best judgement.

Is there a mechanic at the shop who you have dealt with in the past? Talk with him to see if they are "light" on Nissan experience. If their experience is with older Chevy and Ford pushrod engines then an overhead cam engine may seem strange to them. If they are servicing vehicles built in the last five years or so then an overhead cam engine and timing belts won't be completely foreign (sorry, bad pun) to them. Worst case, they may need to borrow your Haynes manual.

 

dlj189

The timing belt replacement schedule stated in the owners manual is 105,000 for a nissan frontier 3.3 L V6 2WD. The shop has concured on this. Nissan service dept has as well. V4 nissan are at 60,000. I'm not sure why but that's what it says. The manual also says my truck is recommended to get sparks replaced at 100,000 and simply "checked" at oil change time prior to 100,000.

Those stats being cleared up, I have also read on this forum the following:

In the same thread regarding timing belt the following was stated:

metro273 wrote:
Should I request these seals be replaced as well if I let the shop do it? Again adding more expense rather than taking away now, but that's ok with me if it gets me another 50,000-75,000 miles without a major system failure.

The truck is still on light duty so no harm is coming to it, no excessive mileage (10 miles a day max) while I consider the order of repairs, the shop vs. self, and the part choices of these repairs.

Thanks so much for all your help. It's so nice to talk to people about this sort of stuff that know what I'm talking about and care about it. It really helps me make complex decisions like this.

dlj189

I have decided to let the shop do all of it, even the plugs, fuel filter, and such.

I lucked out when I called in today to talk it over and schedule it, and got the shop owner, so I explained my fussbugetness and thrifty from birth syndrome problem, and he was very understanding. I explained that I had been researching this timing belt job (and the tuneup job, and the power steering pump job, as well as taking notes from you fine fellows regarding additional things to think about at this mileage) and I think he began to remember me from the work I did (and they finished) on our Ford Escort and our old Volvo, as he was very forthcoming with details about what else might or might not be needed and why, raising my confidence level in the shop's familiarity with Nissan. We went through the entire part list and agreed on what would be changed and what would be checked and tht I would be also be called when they got it open to discuss it further if needed. He seemed to appreciate my effort to understand the work as well.

Thanks so much for all your help.
Warmest Regards,
Dee