Is drifting racing?

sethwas · May 13th, 2004, 02:09 PM

I don't think so.

Its the slow way around a race track. Unless you are on dirt that is...

Seth

tkvtec · May 13th, 2004, 02:42 PM

This is a highly debateable topic.
If you've ever seen Initial D (granted it is animated) you may change your mind.
The idea is for a less powerful more lightweight vehicle to be able to maintain speed through a corner whereas a larger car with more power would slow down more and then just out accelerate such a car if they tried to take the corner in the same way.
In most cases (amateurs), the driver is not good enough to make a clean drift that would be faster than a regular grip turn. With certain cars and good drivers on certain courses you can have someone drift a track faster than someone making the corners normally.
Most drift events are for style points, but I can see a car using a drift to maintain speed through a corner. As a matter of fact I saw an Evo 3 use a drift through the last corner at an autocross event a week and a half ago (which was really sick by the way), and kept more speed through the corner than anyone had done all day.
A drift event is not a race, but drifting can be used in racing under certain circumstances to get a quicker time.

Kato · May 13th, 2004, 03:41 PM

Well obviously pro drifters aren't competing to get the fastest time on the track. Drifting is more about style, however, speed is one of the factors taken into account by the judges...

myoung · May 13th, 2004, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kato

Well obviously pro drifters aren't competing to get the fastest time on the track. Drifting is more about style, however, speed is one of the factors taken into account by the judges...

exactly..

It is not the fastest way around a corner, regradless of the car, power, weight..etc.. (unless you are on dirt) ...

That's what I wanna see Formula 1 or Indy cars sliding around corners.

Quote:

If you've ever seen Initial D (granted it is animated)

And you can really tone your skills by watching Speed Racer.

tkvtec · May 13th, 2004, 04:46 PM

If you watch it, it makes sense. Don't knock what I'm saying just because it's an animated film. I would never say the same thing about speedracer. They do talk a lot about the physics of it. If you see it you'll understand what I'm talking about. I would have always said the same, but for some reason the show just makes too much sense. Maybe I just want it to be true, but you should check it out anyway, it's pretty good.

Kato · May 13th, 2004, 04:54 PM

You might be surprised how accurate alot of the stuff in Initial D is...

tkvtec · May 13th, 2004, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kato

You might be surprised how accurate alot of the stuff in Initial D is...

At least I'm not the only one that thinks so.

myoung · May 13th, 2004, 05:20 PM

The question was "Is it Racing", not is there legit information about drifting in Initial D?

Quote:

The idea is for a less powerful more lightweight vehicle to be able to maintain speed through a corner whereas a larger car with more power would slow down more and then just out accelerate such a car if they tried to take the corner in the same way.

Really has nothing to do with power. It is slower, period. Ever see style points given to any form of racing?

I'm not knocking drifting, its just physics. When you lose traction and slide, on purpose or not you slow down and lose momentum through the corner.

Unless it's Rally or Sprint type cars on dirt.

ronaldo · May 13th, 2004, 07:26 PM

Drifting is not racing, its based on angles style, bla bla bla, im sure i dont need to explain it to you guys
But there are many drift techniques that are often used in racing, rally and shit...
To say its not racing unless its dirt, doesnt make much sense either, cause then your just talking about rally which uses many drifting techniques, but it still isnt the sport of drifting nor based on your angle or how long your holding your drift.
As for initial D, in my opinion, they are for the most part explain realitic technique in driving, but i wouldn't look at it for an accurate tool and how i should clear a corner using drift because since it is a cartoon there is the tendecy to exaggerate those techniques... IT's a CARToon!, but a damn good one.. speaking of it, i just got stage 4 episode one and two

Slayer2003 · May 13th, 2004, 07:54 PM

Drifting in my eyes is like bike classes. road race biking is like the Indy series, mountain biking is like rally, and vert/flatland is like drifting. more of a show/trick-utilizing class, than a speed class. either way, i think its here to stay.

ronaldo · May 13th, 2004, 08:01 PM

that was a nice way to put it

sethwas · May 13th, 2004, 11:46 PM

Anyway,
I've seen Initial D. Almost beaten the game, and have seen real drifting. Just initial D explains that drifting isn't the fastest way around a course. Although its funny that the show leads the sport/hobby whatever.
I can't remember the last time I drove a RWD car, but I've done high speed in snow and ice in FWD so know about sliding.
However drift competitions aren't speed contests. A race is a speed contest. Drifting is not about getting from point A to point B the fastest. In the anime it was (and I watch it in Japanese, not english, but subtitled, and it actually helped me when I was in italy because the japanese people on my Eurostar Train from Rome to Venice were in seat Haichi-Roku, go figure) except that they didn't drift every corner, just sharp hairpins like in a tarmac rally where they used momentum to carry the car around the corner. The spinning of the rear tires was just to keep the car oversteering to get it to point the right direction so when the tires hook up again the car is pointing the right direction.
Still, the D1 grand prix and stuff are about style and finesse. Its like having a burnout contest.
The only time I've seen drifting helpful (and rally is debateable 'drifting') is on dirt track racing. be it V8 or midget or sprint or motorcycle. But the cars are staggered and the gas pedal is used to steer the car more than the steering wheel.
I just ask my question because you'll never see an F1 car or indy car or nascar or F3000 or can-am or touring car or go cart 'drifting' around a track unless they are fishtailing or trying to recover a slide because it slows the car too much (wastes forward momentum and traction) and destroys the tires, and like they said in Days of Thunder "Tires is what wins the race".
Yet people think that it makes them faster. Its like in the movies, stuntmen are told to balls out slide the cars around corners in chase scenes. The directors and stunt men know that this is actualy slower in terms of actual vehicle speed, but if they really drove the cars fast, and cut apexes, because the cars were being driven so smoothly (the key to the speed) on film it wouldn't look fast at all. The cars have to be sliding to give the impression of speed. Which is why to me, drifting seems to be an odd pastime.
Still it'ss cool because its about total car control, but I think its such a shame to spend all that money in rubber for ballet.

Seth

ronaldo · May 14th, 2004, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sethwas

drifting seems to be an odd pastime.
Still it'ss cool because its about total car control, but I think its such a shame to spend all that money in rubber for ballet.

Seth

FOR the sake of art man!!

tkvtec · May 14th, 2004, 09:03 AM

I'll say it again...

A drift event is not a race, but drifting can be used in racing under certain circumstances to get a quicker time.

I did answer the question "is it racing or not?". But I also felt the need to create discussion about whether drifting could be used in a race to get better times. I've seen it with my own eyes on a tight corner on an autocross course. The lap time proved it. Noone that day could use a straight grip line through that specific turn and make it faster. As a matter of fact many of the RWD, and AWD drivers started to drift that corner as the day progressed. It was simply because giving the turn a slight 4 wheel drift gave the car a better exit angle allowing them to hold a higher speed through the turn.(they were otherwise pushing through the corner (understeer), spinning out from trying to make the corner faster without initiating a proper drift (oversteer), or just plain taking the corner slower.) I'm not talking about getting the car sliding sideways and over exaggerated as you may be thinking. If you get the car in a 4 wheel drift, (which does not have to be at much of an angle) it WILL allow you a better exit angle and greater chance of maintaining speed. Why do you think they teach it at Racing Schools such as Skip Barber?

Yes drifting does wear the tires like crazy, and I certainly wouldn't expect a NASCAR car to drift an oval. I'm talking about a real race with many turns that go in both directions (opening can of worms... now). No, I do beleive NASCAR is real racing, but it's just not my preference. I'm basically talking about any course that isn't straight and isn't like a NASCAR oval.
Ever watch touring races? They drift turns all the time. Again, I'm not talking about the drifting that everyone thinks is the only form of drifting (get the car really sideways and spin those tires).

(Maybe the definition of drifting should have been posted)
(Also, this is not arguing that drift events are races, because they are not, but 4 wheel drifts are used in races all the time).

tkvtec · May 14th, 2004, 09:16 AM

Also, I am not saying that drifting is faster for every turn. There are times when it is and times when it isn't. Drifts are also used just exiting a corner, and not through the entire corner. The primary point where drifting a corner would be faster is where the corner speeds would be much lower due to the lack of grip (such as but not limited to rally, or even just wet tarmac). Some situations would leave the front tires losing enough grip to put the car in an understeer, leaving a very poor exit angle and the need to slow down in the middle of a corner, and a lesser ability to accelerate out of the corner. F1 and Indy are very different examples, because they very rarely lose grip through a turn. They are built so that they won't. No regular coupe or sedan can do the same. Number one the tires on a production vehicle, even aftermarket cannot come close to the gripping ability of the indy/f1 tires.

(Sorry, I have a lot of free time at work today)