sup pplz
heh, long time reader so i figured i might as well ask something while i wait for my first car... *sigh* i need a car,
Anyways, been wondering about why people use heel toe, because all it does it keep the car from jolting when you downshift right? or does it also keep the wheels from locking so you don't spin out? Any clarification on what heel-toe is or what it does would be very helpful, considering drift bible didn't say anything about it =P
Also, wondering about suspension. Stiffer simply allows for less body-roll during cornering right? but too stiff will mean the downforce is too great so it's grip cornering instead of drift? just wanna see if i have that info correct. Also, i don't see how drifitng is so fast, seems like it would slow a car down during corners instead of faster.
And last question concerning four-wheel drift. What is it? is it simply grip-cornering but at the limit of the tire grip? so it's like half-drift half grip? i don't see how that would help cornering angle. Oh, and what is slip angle? it's the angle your tires make during a corner vs. the actual angle your turning right?
just wondering bout this stuff, so if any of you drift "guru's" out there could help, greatly appreciated ^_^
1. heel and toe is simply used to keep the revs up when entering a corner, in order to do that you have to down shift, but match the revs, and brake all at the same time to save time, instead of, breaking, then letting go of it to press in the clutch, and rev up and then go back to the break, that takes more time, and , by not reving at all you will get that jolt, but your rpms will also drop more, giving you a slow exit speed
2. i dont think its a matter of how stiff the suspension but the balance of front to rear. Even if someone has a really stiff suspension it could still as be very driftable, i think its more about getting rid of body roll, and getting more better response so you would be able to drift or grip with extra control ... for example at the D1 a little while back, there was even an jgtc viper drifting for fun and it is a full on race car. (I'm still tryin to understand this stuff more, just my thought on it)
as for the drifting being slower comment, its more about the circumstances and whether it is show drift with huge angles or fast drift where the tail doesnt come out as much, cause drifting as a sport isnt about speed, its about the style and those big angles. as for canyon driving or rally, for really tight corners, drift is the best way around it, watch some wrc.. good effect drift technique.
3. four wheel drift to my knowledge would be drifting with an awd drive car, which is still basically the same concept as drifting with rwd... again look at some wrc. UNless im misunderstanding the question.
as for the slip angle-"Slip angle is a term used to describe a particular type of flex in tires. Even though the name uses the word "slip," this characteristic has nothing to do with slipping or skidding. Slip angle is a measurement of how much the tire's contact patch has tw isted (steered) in relation to the wheel. A good way to demonstrate this characteristic is to stand beside your car and turn the steering wheel. If you watch the left front wheel, you will see that it steers a few degrees before the tire's contact patch starts to turn. It is not uncommon for this slip angle to be as large as 6 to 10 degrees on the race track.
This characteristics is important, because as long as the tires have traction, the car tries to go where the tires are pointed. So, even though the wheels may not be steering, the tires can be steering due to the slip angle. "
anyone please correct me if im wrong with any of this info
__________________
subaru wrx?!?, wtf am i doin here...
you are indeed wrong with some of your info. first, the heel-toe method is used to match the revs on downshifts. when downshifting you feel that sudden jolt from the car, which upsets the weight balance. upsetting the weight balance in this way actually causes oversteer and isnt wanted. so you brake with your toes and keep the revs up with your heel and downshift. keeping the revs up stops that jolt from happening and keeps the weight balance where you want it. next, 4 wheel drift is exactly that - where all 4 wheels are being drifted instead of just the rear tires. this isnt easy and is insane to do. you have to lose traction of all 4 four tires while maintaining control of the car. dont even try it. last, suspension can be as stiff as you want. JIC's S13 runs 16kg fronts and 12kg rears. you dont need anywhere near that high and that would not be driveable on the streets by any means. the coilovers i'm getting are set up as 8kg front and 6kg rear. stiffness doesnt change what type of driving you should do with the car as far as grip or drift.
lolz, thanks guys =) ok ok, so the slip angle things is right? gotcha
anyways, that brings up new thing, suspension, if lowering the suspension doesn't increase g-force, is the only point to avoid body roll? and what does stiffness do to the car anyways? cuz that seems like it would affect only bodyroll also.
okiez, thanks lots, any other little tips on drift basics works also =)
Actually Ronaldo was correct, its also used to keep you in the powerband, especially for lower power cars...
you are wrong man. it has nothing to do with the powerband. you heel-toe when you downshift: when you downshift the rev's go up: the revs go up putting you in the powerband more. this is used when slowing down for a corner or a drift. it has nothing to do with keeping the engine in it's powerband.
suspension: lowering the car lowers it's center of gravity: lower center of gravity equals better handling. suspensions are made to be stiff to decrease body roll and stiffen the chassis. all this leads to better handling. the stiffer the springs, the stiffer the chassis and the lower the body roll. ride comfort is also sacrificed.
The Purpose and Benefits of Heel Toe Down Shifting
HT shifting is a braking and shifting method allowing you to downshift quickly and safely, during constant braking, without upsetting the balance of the car. Good HT shifting keeps the engine, transmission, and rear wheel speeds matched closely so there is no jerkiness through the drive train when down shifting, making high speed maneuvers much more safe and stable. Smoothness is a key to going fast safely so this skill is a must if you want to drive fast with a high degree of control where braking and downshifting is involved. It also puts a lot less stress on the whole drive train, making it last a lot longer.
Maybe another way to look at this is to consider what happens when you don’t HT. You are coming up to a turn, going fast. It’s obvious that you have to slow down in order to get around the corner, on the pavement at least :>) You are braking now but must also get into a lower gear to accelerate quickly out of the turn. When you shift into the lower gear while braking and let out the clutch, a major jerk goes through your car’s drive train while your rear wheels are chirping, or worse, locking up. That will definitely put a serious pucker in your hinder parts!!!. You might get through corner in one piece. It wasn’t smooth and controlled, therefore slow and dangerous, and your car just took a beating. Not a lot of fun for you, the drivers around you or your car.
Now consider the same scenario when you can HT. You come up to the same corner. You begin braking to slow down with your right foot on the brake. Subsequent to beginning to brake you need to downshift to be able to exit the corner under power in the right gear but you don’t want to stop your braking at that time. While pressing the brake you are about to depress the clutch with your left foot. Up to this point, you have done nothing differently but now the fun begins. With your right foot still fully planted on the brake and as you depress the clutch, you simultaneously blip the gas pedal with the right side of your right foot. The engine revs up, matching the speed of the gears in the transmission and rear wheels. When you let out the clutch after down shifting, everything engages smoothly, you get back on the go pedal, smoothly accelerating out the turn to your track out point. Your car’s balance and stability were never disrupted, you were smooth, fast and your car is just as happy as it was before you went through the corner. It also puts a smile on your face because you know you just completed a tricky high speed maneuver safely and very quickly. You will NEVER be as fast or smooth as you can be without learning this crucial skill.
suspension: lowering the car lowers it's center of gravity: lower center of gravity equals better handling. suspensions are made to be stiff to decrease body roll and stiffen the chassis. all this leads to better handling. the stiffer the springs, the stiffer the chassis and the lower the body roll. ride comfort is also sacrificed.
This isn't exactly right either. Stiffer springs won't stiffen your chassis. The chassis is the unsprung mass that the suspension system holds up (springs, dampers, control arms, axles, wheels, etc are not part of the chassis). The difference is that installing too stiff a spring can cause your tyres to slip from imperfections on the road or insufficient lateral grip from the tyres. Making your chassis "too stiff" (in my experience, very difficult to do : P) will only make your suspension system work better because everything will be held in place by a more solid backing. The stiffer the springs, the harder it will be to maintain total ride comfort over less-than-smooth roads. However, less body roll does not directly relate to a harsh ride. With the proper suspension geometry and damper adjustments, it's not impossible to build a car with a sporty suspension system with very little body roll, a low center of gravity, and a fairly comfortable ride.
lolz, thanks guys =) ok ok, so the slip angle things is right? gotcha
anyways, that brings up new thing, suspension, if lowering the suspension doesn't increase g-force, is the only point to avoid body roll? and what does stiffness do to the car anyways? cuz that seems like it would affect only bodyroll also.
If you're going to be doing any sort of performance driving, you should pick up a nice book on the ins and outs of suspension (check out Carroll Smith's Drive to Win and Tune to Win. They're good and cheap). It's really pretty easy to learn the basics of and fun to experiment with once you know the basics, but in order to learn everything really well you do need a good book (or ten) that explains it all in detail.
It's worth it though.
__________________
Captain Slow.
Last edited by ReVerm : Apr 28th, 2004 at 11:22 PM.
Reason: Italicized titles to make them stand out
just get the drift bible, He explains everythign pretty good in there.
Are you talking about that thing Keiichi Tsuchiya did for Best Motoring? That thing doesn't teach you anything technical, becuase it assumes you know the basics already. The Japanese care about suspension & brakes a hell of a lot more than people over here, and most people know suspension inside out but almost no clue when it comes to fiddling with the engine. Unfortunately, that isn't the case over here, so you need some real solid reading to catch up.
Linear Mode
